Runtime DEPRECATED?

[MSPJ]

I'm really hoping I'm misunderstanding something - but at the bottom of this page, it seems to say that the Runtime is being deprecated. Is that how others understand this?

 

http://help.filemaker.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/14502/~/filemaker-pro-14-and-filemaker-pro-14-advanced-release-notes

 

 

[Lee Smith]

It is available in FMPA 14

[Wim Decorte]

It says "to be deprecated" so don't start building a business on it now.  It means it will be pulled from a future product and no longer be available.  "When" is unknown.  It just serves as fair warning.

[MSPJ]

That is a huge change! My entire reason for having FMP Advanced is a shrink-wrapped product based on the runtime.  So the message here is don't expect future development - which to me says, anyone who considers runtimes critical, time to start planning your exit strategy.  Hopefully someone will explain to me that I'm over-reacting, because there is some obvious alternative I'm missing.

 

[James Gill]

I mean, your product won't STOP working when they remove Runtime functionality...but ya, RunTimes are sort of critical to a closed, shrink wrapped solution.  What the heck Filemaker...

I mean, there are some huge glaring issues with runtimes at the moment (no Client-Server functionality, but there are workarounds), but I guess they're assuming that if you have an internet connection, WebDirect is the product that they want you to use...shame about that 100-concurrent user limit though.

Edited May 12, 2015 by James Gill

[MSPJ]

So I've never looked at Web Direct -- my product is essentially a single user solution (or a few people in a household).  Would web direct allow me to do essentially the same thing as a shrink-wrapped product based on runtime does now?  It doesn't require server?  And I wouldn't be distributing actual copies of filemaker itself?

 

 

[Wim Decorte]

It does require FileMaker Server and a license for the connection to it.

 

[Wim Decorte]

If most of your clients have an iOS device you could remake your product to work in FM Go.

 

[MSPJ]

No - I appreciate the suggestion but  totally not viable - both for my client base (many senior citizens) and the product, which requires a lot of data entry, printing, etc. It's fundamentally a desktop solution.  I could imagine running it in a browser - but not if it requires server.  My solution sells for under $50 - kind of incompatible with something like server by a couple orders of magnitude.  And individual users maintain their own database of personal medical data - it's not a centralized database in any way. 

Well I guess it's time to start planning to code this from scratch in a compiled language and abandon FMP after over 10 years. Kind of a slap in the face to an important subset of their customers.  

 

 

[marianco]

Well I guess it's time to start planning to code this from scratch in a compiled language and abandon FMP after over 10 years. Kind of a slap in the face to an important subset of their customers.  

Luckily, you don't have to start from scratch.  

You can create a solution in Filemaker Pro 2013, then use FMPro Migrator to convert it into a Microsoft Access 2013 Database - which has a runtime solution you can sell. Or use it to convert your Filemaker solution to a stand alone LiveCode Application - which you can sell on the Mac App store.  It works great for doing the conversion.  You can prototype in Filemaker before doing the conversion.

I wish Microsoft would create Access for Mac so that the entire office suite would run on OS X.  With an Office365 for Business account, Microsoft can host your Access for web solution for use within your company. Its a great solution that costs a lot less than a Filemaker server solution.  For $150 a year per person, you get 5 copies of Office for Macs and PCs, 5 copies of iOS Office, soon unlimited (currently 1 TB) for the only HIPAA SECURE cloud storage on OneDrive, Skype video conferencing for business, and any number of your Web-hosted Access Databases. And for PCs, you can create stand-alone runtimes of your Access databases.

Obviously, you can still run Access from Windows in Parallels on OS X if you don't want to run it on a PC.

 

 

Edited May 12, 2015 by marianco

[MSPJ]

Oh wow - thank you!  I didn't know FMPro Migrator could do that.  That is very good news. (Well, relatively speaking). 

[comment]

Well I guess it's time to start planning to code this from scratch in a compiled language

​I believe you'll have plenty of time to plan once FMI actually drop the runtime feature (if they ever do). The most recent version will still run and support the most recent OSs. That should keep you in business for at least a year (more with senior citizens). And who knows: maybe they'll replace it with a desktop version of FileMaker Go?

Edited May 12, 2015 by comment

[Josh Ormond]

I would expect that they have a plan. It is a big change for sure. I would definitely like to see what comment mentioned. A desktop version of FileMaker Go. While I don't know anything of the roadmap for FileMaker, I do know that FileMaker has acknowledged that the idea is at least been talked about. That doesn't mean for sure it will happen. But at least they have kicked around the idea.

[xtrim]

That is VERY disturbing....

[Josh Ormond]

1. It's a ways off. They are not taking it out of 14. So for the next 12-18 months if the release cycle stays the same, you have it in the shipping version.

2. Even after they drop it ( might be 15, might not ), FileMaker 14 will still work.

3. They may replace it with a better option.

4. There are options out there to fill the gap, if in the worst case scenario, they don't replace the functionality with something that works for your needs.

I think the reactions on the forums has been a little over the top. I understand the concern, but some threads are much too doomsday for what this really is.

[xtrim]

I like you optimistic approach...But businesses are not built on "might" or "may".

When you make a business plan it's not for the "next 12-18" months it for 4-5 years.

Uncertainty is not healthy for any serious business...

[Josh Ormond]

Absolutely.

FM 14 should be able to function for 4-5 years. It's also really good to have multiple tools, and choose the best one for a project. Sometimes it's FM, sometimes it's not.

[xtrim]

I have some runtime solutions that I'm selling since FM 11...so yeah...now I "might"  need to move on....

[webko]

I had an old customer come back to me with their FM6 solution - it was still working, they wanted something changed...

Took a bit of effort for me to dig up a computer that ran it.

Point being - software doesn't stop working because there are newer versions out there. You can continue to make run-times using your current version for as long as you like...

[Wim Decorte]

I like you optimistic approach...But businesses are not built on "might" or "may".

When you make a business plan it's not for the "next 12-18" months it for 4-5 years.

Uncertainty is not healthy for any serious business...

​Not to put too fine a point on it; but your business plan should have accounted for this.  The writing has been on the wall for the last 20 years, ever since networking was removed from in FileMaker 4 or 5 (I forget which).  Then it became clearer when major features did not make it into the runtime version since then.  That FMI is wanting to deprecate runtimes is not unexpected.  I'm surprised it took them so long.

Sure it was cheap but you were never in control.  If you want that control and be less dependent then you have to go with a more traditional programming environment, but spend a lot more money up-front.

[MSPJ]

Luckily, you don't have to start from scratch.  

You can create a solution in Filemaker Pro 2013, then use FMPro Migrator to convert it into a Microsoft Access 2013 Database - which has a runtime solution you can sell. Or use it to convert your Filemaker solution to a stand alone LiveCode Application - which you can sell on the Mac App store.  It works great for doing the conversion.  You can prototype in Filemaker before doing the conversion.

 

​

According to the website for FM Pro Migrator, it doesn't support FMP versions after 11, nor Access versions after 2007, so this may no longer be a useful approach.  It would seem they have not continued development of that product. 

[marianco]

​

According to the website for FM Pro Migrator, it doesn't support FMP versions after 11, nor Access versions after 2007, so this may no longer be a useful approach.  It would seem they have not continued development of that product. 

​The developer is actively developing FMPro Migrator.  Realize that it is a huge task to completely convert a Filemaker Pro database to Access and Access to Filemaker Pro and Filemaker Pro to PHP or LiveCode or SQL versions - and to keep up with Filemaker as it creates new file formats that are incompatible with the old versions.  He wrote FMPro Migrator in LiveCode which is why you can convert Filemaker Pro to a LiveCode application.  It initially a year ago did not support the new Filemaker Pro 12 file format, but now he is.  And it is possible to convert Filemaker Pro 13 databases to an Access database with nearly the same appearance and layout as your Filemaker database.  That is the attraction of FMPro Migrator - it does a lot of the work for you.

In regard to Access versions, realize that Microsoft does a really good job of converting an Access database to and from different versions.  Within Access 2013, you can open up an Access 2007 database and instantly convert it to the 2013 format.  You can even downgrade an Access 2013 database into an Access 2007 or 2010 database - something you absolutely cannot do with Filemaker.  And you can open up an Access 2007 database, use it and keep it in the 2007 format.  You aren't forced to convert formats like Filemaker Pro does.  

What allows this to easily happen is that Access underneath the interface and Visual Basic scripting language is simply a pure SQL database that is the equal of Filemaker Pro but is much deeper.  I think Access is every bit the equal of 4th Dimension though as a Microsoft Product is more disorganized in its approach, but in many ways a lot easier to use than 4D since it doesn't have the kitchen sink approach that 4th Dimension has used through the years.  Every action - such as doing a query and creating a script is converted into the SQL language in the background by Access.  The interface is simply a front end to an SQL database.  If you want to program Access totally and directly in SQL instead of Visual Basic, you actually can simply do it. 

An attractive option is to use FM Pro Migrator to convert your Filemaker Pro Database - keeping the layouts, look and feel - into a LiveCode compiled stand-alone application.  LiveCode can compile the newly created database into an app that runs on Mac OS X, Windows, Linus, iOS, and Android.  You can sell it as a stand-alone compiled app on each platform. 

In regard to LiveCode, it started its life as Runtime Revolution - an evolution of Hypercard. It still uses a card metaphor.  Then it morphed into a cross between Hypercard and RealBasic.  There is a free community version if you want to get your feet wet in it. Given its roots, it is a lot easier to code and rapid prototype in it than using Objective C or Swift.

Should we lose Filemaker's runtime solution and should Filemaker not offer a better solution (i.e. a compiled app solution), then FMPro Migrator offers a really attractive option for your existing databases. You can use Filemaker Pro as the prototyper. 

[normanicus]

This would not be the first time that Filemaker, the company, has abused the term 'upgrade'. Just did a search to check that they are still using that word. There was once no limit on the number of web connections (I'm pretty sure), there once was a Linux version of the server. These disappeared as 'upgrades'. I wonder what a US court would make of that usage. 

 

[MSPJ]

Marianco - thanks for the clarification and all the information - it's very helpful.  And I have been in touch with the FMpro Migrator developer who responded immediately and apparently there was some outdated or confusing info on the website. So it does seem to be in current development and up to date.  That's great to know.  

Michael

 

[David Jondreau]

 to an important subset of their customers.

Curious...Why do you feel you're an important subset of FMI's customers? I'm assuming you own a single license of FMPA. How many customers do you serve with that license?

[MSPJ]

This really doesn't seem like a fruitful direction to take the discussion, so I'm going to pass on responding to what comes off as an unnecessary challenge.  

[Wim Decorte]

This really doesn't seem like a fruitful direction to take the discussion, so I'm going to pass on responding to what comes off as an unnecessary challenge.  

​It's not an unnecessary challenge.  It's a vital one.  If you think you can pitch a case to FMI that you can prove that your use of the runtime brings them revenue then I am sure that FMI will listen to that.  Put your numbers together and present it to them.

[comment]

​It's not an unnecessary challenge.  It's a vital one.  If you think you can pitch a case to FMI that you can prove that your use of the runtime brings them revenue then I am sure that FMI will listen to that.  Put your numbers together and present it to them.

​I don't think anyone has this kind of numbers. Even FMI cannot tell if you're buying FMPA for the purpose of making runtimes and just because you want the debugger. OTOH, I believe that if you bought FMPA for the purpose of making runtimes, you're entitled to consider yourself an important subset of FMI customers. Even if you were the only one to do so.

[bruceR]

Not sure where that gets us. Yes, the hypothetical lone person buying FMPA to build runtimes can declare themselves important. As, suppose, the hypothetical lone FMPA customer who buys FMPA to generate mirror-image PDFs. Does that actually make this sum of two customers important to FMI?

[Josh Ormond]

As a business every customer is important. However, when business decision is being made, the numbers that show why feature x are important enough to maintain are vital. In all businesses, you will almost always tend to the needs of the many first. FileMaker has done that, without completely ignoring the few.

Take Print Marketing vs Digital Marketing. In the industry that I work in during the day...9 of 10 leads come from digital sources. The 1 lead of 10 that comes from the print source makes that 1 lead REALLY REALLY expensive. Almost all businesses in the space have cut the print marketing and spend those funds in digital space. That same money can now generate 5 leads instead of 1.

One could argue that there are a lot of people that still use the print publication. And that's true. But from a business standpoint, it is not feasible to support the print. And it doesn't help our target customer base. And in the end 99.9% of those people will go find the digital info.

FMI is in exactly that same position. Supporting a technology that is holding back the rest of the platform. In this case, it STILL works. So that gives you 12-18 months to state your case to FileMaker, Inc. In the off chance that their roadmap doesn't give you another path to run with, they can then consider it.

And I disagree. People should have those numbers. How many of your customers started with a Run-time, then came back to you to get full licenses and set up FMS. Maybe they aren't 100% accurate, but you should have an idea.

[comment]

Not sure where that gets us.

​It's not supposed to get us anywhere. On the contrary, it was meant to keep us out of the kind of discussion that David was trying to start. The "let's pretend we are running FMI and know what is important to them and what's not" kind.

[Fitch]

@MSPJ -- I was going to suggest you look into the FBA and the SBA:

"The Solution Bundle Agreement (SBA) is a software discount program designed for FileMaker Business Alliance partners who want to distribute FileMaker software bundled with their professionally developed solutions. FileMaker Pro, and FileMaker Server are available for special volume discounts in this program."

 http://www.filemaker.com/fba/public_faq.html

The discount is huge, but at $50 I don't know if your solution could make a profit. Still, I think it's worth contacting your FileMaker regional sales rep and explore your options. Any FileMaker user would do better to look on the company as a partner, not an adversary. When they are successful, we are successful and v. versa.

Meanwhile, even if they dropped runtimes today (which they aren't), you could still continue to sell your product for years to come.

[MSPJ]

THanks everyone for the thoughtful input.  I appreciate all the points being made.  

None of my customers come back for a full license or run FMS!   I am selling a very inexpensive application to help families with significant medical needs manage their conditions and their bills, etc.  It's a critical need for these people, but they tend for the most part to have very little money and often are older and not tech savvy. They are not businesses running servers - they are families with a laptop in their livingroom, and some very big medical problems.  It really requires the runtime to be workable, so yes, I would not have been using FMP were runtimes not available.  It is true I can continue selling it for a few years at least - but knowing it's going away, I have to think about throwing good money after bad - does it make sense to continue to develop in FMP, knowing it will be that much more complex to have to convert it in a few years?  Do I want to continue to invest in other tools and plugins that work with FMP (Theme Studio, Base Elements, FM DIff, etc) , knowing that investment won't have time to pay off (and indeed, I wouldn't have bought some of the ones I have invested in if I'd known I only had a few more years using FMP).  So it means I'm probably going to pull back on the reins sooner and start looking towards an exit strategy.  Which is a shame, because FMP with the runtime has been perfect for this use. 

I do understand that companies have to put their resources where the numbers are - that makes sense. At the same time, this is not a script step they're deprecating.  It's a very significant aspect of functionality offered by FMP Advanced.  And I don't like the way they kind of tossed it off at the bottom of release notes as if it were this minor feature being deprecated because it's become obsolete.  I would think they would at least respect their customers enough to explain what their roadmap is and whether they plan to offer something to replace it.  From my point of view, it's no less significant than saying they were deprecating Script Manager.

I will check out the options suggested above - thanks Fitch.  I suspect it's not going to be enough of a discount to make it work, but it's worth investigating.   

 

[marianco]

Because Windows is a very stable platform with a lot of backwards compatibility, you can still create runtimes using Filemaker Pro 13 or 14  for WINDOWS users for  years to come. 

It will be the Mac users who will hurt the most since the Filemaker Pro 13 or 14 isn't guaranteed to work with future versions of OS X for creating runtime solutions.

Since there are obviously many more Windows users than Mac users, you can still generate a lot of profit by targeting Windows users for your solutions.

 

 

 

[Wim Decorte]

​I don't think anyone has this kind of numbers. 

​I would assume that anyone running a business has those numbers for himself.  I know how many licenses I sell and help sell.  It's kinda important for negotiating license prices...