Definition vs Meaning

["... you mean these fans?"]

What is the difference between a "Moron" and an "Intelligent Moron" ?

Well, a "Moron" doesn't even know they're a moron, while an "Intelligent Moron" comes to the discovery that hey I'm a "Moron" wow!  In this glorious moment, the "Moron" tries to apply this new found intelligences but since they're still a moron who lacks "Wisdom ( Meaning )" any application of this intelligence goes to the way side and the moron remains at whatever level the moron was before discovery was made, even though there is all this new found intelligence all around him.

Everybody is ignorant within the proper context :-)

The underline failure of this "Forum" and all other "Forums" I've discovered is that there is a disconnect between those who are in the know vs those who are not in the know.

Those individuals who are in the "know" come into these forums with there battle shields on and attack the questions with "Definition".  While those who are not in the know come into these forums with their battle shields on asking for help and or assistance ... looking for "Meaning".

And as you can see .... “Definition” and “Meaning” are two completely different concepts to learning ... you must acquire "Meaning" first, then you can apply the many "Definitions" that often wrap themselves around the some "Meaning".

How many times are people told not to leave there keys in the ignition ( Definition ).  However, once these individuals experience their car being stolen can they now apply "Meaning", and learning is complete and instant!

It took years of "Definitions", talking with and paying for "Experts”, forums galore explaining what a "Relationship" really was, complete confusion on my part.  Not until I personally discovered on my own that a "Relationship" is nothing but a "Found Set" ... so why not just say "Found Set" ?  It would be a lot easier that’s for use.

I would like to make a suggestion to this forum that before those who are in the know, coming into a question, try to convey "Meaning" first.  If this can be accomplished, then learning will be complete and almost instantaneously.

But if "Definition" continues to be applies in these forums first with the absent of "Meaning", then this forum as well as all others will continue to see the same questions continually ask in the same way but in a different context, with no learning except for maybe the very few who’ve come into this physical illusion complete where meaning had be acquired in a past life.

Is this not the goal of this forum ... to be of assistance to the less fortunate ?

Comment to your question mark "mote ?"...

We all go to heaven together at the same time or nobody gets in!  :-)  So, nobody is getting in without me too !  :-)

Mr. Ignoramus :-)

 

Edited February 7, 2016 by Mr. Ignoramus

[comment]

I have no idea what you want, but since there is one thing in your post that has to do with Filemaker, I will address myself to that:

22 minutes ago, Mr. Ignoramus said:

Not until I personally discovered on my own that a "Relationship" is nothing but a "Found Set" ... so why not just say "Found Set" ?  It would be a lot easier that’s for use.

A relationship is not a found set. A relationship is a set of predicates that, when applied, will create a related set. In that, a relationship is somewhat like a Perform Find step, that, when applied, will create a found set. And a found set is very different from a related set.

 

[Wim Decorte]

3 hours ago, Mr. Ignoramus said:

The underline failure of this "Forum" and all other "Forums" I've discovered is that there is a disconnect between those who are in the know vs those who are not in the know.

I could not disagree more.

You make it sound like there is a "them and us" here, and it seems to imply an unwillingness to share or help.

When I started out 25 years ago, it was forums like these that helped me through the learning curve, get the lingo right and the concepts straight.  It didn't help me much that my mindset was in another place (I came from an an all-Access, VB6 background).  But once I got through the initial humps, I was good to go, to the point that I'd like to think that I'm helping others get through those same growing pains more quickly.

To your point: a relationship can result in a found set, but it does not have to... The relationship is a concept, the found set is a possible outcome.  You can also reach out to a relationship and get just get one record, without ever having to construct the whole found set.

I sorta get what you are saying, sometimes you need these "aha!" moments to break through a glass ceiling.

But - please - do not make it sound like anyone here is NOT willing to help.  Styles will vary, and posts are like email: a very poor medium with very low bandwidth to convey sometimes complex things.  So if you get an answer that you feel does not get you further, rephrase and ask again, or ask for clarification.  But do NOT attack the people that are trying to help you, in their own free time, gratis, for free, out of the goodness of their hearts, willingly,...  

 

[LaRetta]

Mr. Ignoramus,

You give yourself that title, not us.  We are a nice group of people trying to help each other.  You wish to preach how YOU would handle answering and assisting better than we are providing ... okay ... put your action where your mouth is ... do a better job than we are - I would LOVE IT!

Do not feel you must climb on a high horse and ridicule those helping you.  Please just relax, understand that we truly have YOUR best interests in mind, and roll with it.  Instead you went off and fumed and came back ready for battle but guess what?  You won't get a battle.  

Instead I suggest that you let down your defenses and just have a good time doing this kind of work - just like we are ... or were ... until I read your post and you kinda bummed my day.  Lighten up - you'll find we are quite nice!   

[Josh Ormond]

A little disappointed in the intent of this thread. Like the others here, I have given countless hours helping others 'get FileMaker'. It hurts a bit to hear someone discount not just my help, but the dozens of other developers that contribute daily to help others.

We are ALL here, volunteering our time and knowledge. I learned FM the same way Wim did...through the forums. There were definitely some posts over the years that 'seemed' harsh. But, man, this is text. Don't read emotion, or motive in text. Yes, I know I say that while doing the same thing.

Remember, we are NOT paid. Not a penny. If a post is not helpful, or seems a bit harsh. Thank the poster graciously. And then do as Wim said.

Enjoy your work with FileMaker. Enjoy the help you get from others.

On a side note...this forum and others have grown at an alarming rate. Failure is not exactly the word I would use.

[Rick Whitelaw]

You're aptly named. I concur with the other replies. These are experienced developers giving away their knowledge for nothing in return.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Rick Whitelaw

[bruceR]

Rebranded. Was Snozzles.

[Steve Martino]

As a person on the receiving end of much help, mostly by all the responders before me (and it appears the now retired PhilModJunk), you are obviously way off base with your comments, and your conclusion.  Forget that they are all volunteers graciously donating their time (which they do), no body 'owes' you any help or complete explanation...not even FileMaker...especially for free.

There's not a whole lot of trades where people who do that trade for a living come on and help for free.  In HVAC, my field, their are websites that don't allow any DIY, and others who start off with the response...."I can help you for X amount of dollars.  Would you like to proceed?"  I sure would hate to see these sites go that route.

I will tell you many of the answers I received were for things I researched and tried for hours or days, and hit a wall.  Some were so obvious that I felt embarrassed after asking, but I always am appreciative and thank every response.  If your nice you get lots of help.  If you put up a sample file, you get better help (I've seen BruceR pick thru a sample file and fix problems in minutes-amazing (to me)!).

They patiently help people where English is their second language, or put a foreign language question in a translator, and respond.

Judging by your post, in a different font, I'm sure we'll see it copied/pasted into the other forums.  You want attention (for the wrong reason), you got it!

Have a happy day!

[Fitch]

On the one hand, I sympathize. It's frustrating to be misunderstood, or feel that you are, and frustrating to not understand.

On the other hand, it's fairly common when trying to help someone on this forum, that I have to expend quite a bit of effort on getting enough information to do so. It's like pulling teeth sometimes. That's why many of my answers are prefaced with, "if by X you mean Y..." Or I'll ask a direct question and get a response to a completely different question. Or someone assumes that everyone will know what they mean when they say, "I've got a standard flurbitty form to track my blurbitty bloops."¹

As for terminology, we're not just being pedantic² when we use database-specific or FileMaker-specific language. We have to agree on the meaning of the terms we use or we'll end up going around in circles. So it might come off as arrant pedantry and over-zealous adherence to 'Definition' -- but consider that we might feel it's necessary to define our terms before we can zero in on the elusive 'Meaning.'

¹Not pointing fingers at any specific member here!
²Speaking for myself.

PS: I'd say a relationship is more like a query, or a Find request in FileMaker terms, than a found set.

[Rick Whitelaw]

18 hours ago, BruceR said:

Rebranded. Was Snozzles.

Are you saying Ignoramos is Snozzles?

[Lee Smith]

Yes he is, and it is true.

[normanicus]

This has to be the best moderated forum that I have known. If I have a criticism it is the difficulty of finding the nuggets of wisdom within this growing body of expertise. But, as has been pointed out, people, many of whom have a high earning potential, do this for nothing.

[Fitch]

@normanicus  that's a valid observation -- threads do meander off-topic on occasion. But that's where the "community" comes in. Stackexchange.com would never allow a thread like this. It doesn't specifically shed light on a FileMaker topic. But we're more about helping individuals here. If a future developer lands here from a google search that's great, but at least as I see it, that's just a side benefit to helping a particular person get "unstuck" from a particular problem.