solarpunk Posted October 27, 2003 Share Posted October 27, 2003 Hello, Hello, i was wondering if someone can give me a hand with this. we have 28 databases right now and i was not here when they were build, i want to build a custom login system for the employees. I have check some solutions like the gateway but i am new to fm that i dont know where to begin when it come to that that solutions. Here is what i want to do. i want to create a solution where i can give each person their login/password to access the databases. The deal is that once they are login, i want the databases that correspond with their L/P to open automatically. I have the divide the everyone into groups: Operation, Adminission, Managers. Some people need access to some database to edit/create record, other just need to browser for record and print them out. i want to create administrator interface where i can add new users and enable their privilage. right now, we are using general password the groups. any help would be appreciate, Thanks, victor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MannyRSilva Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Hi Victor. I'm right in the middle of something now- just saw your post. Rather than explaining in detail here, I can send you an example of how I do a login system with our databases. It works very well. It involves creating a master login, one record file with a few globals; and another one, or perhaps two user files, depending on how you prefer to set it up. Then the privileges for each specific database are set in the user file. Creating a relationship from the master login to the user file (master::USERPASSWORD = user::USERPASSWORD) then enables user access privileges for each user. Let me know if you are interested, and I can send them to you fully open and you can check the scripting of the system. Manny Silva Child and Family Services New Bedford, MA [email protected] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solarpunk Posted October 29, 2003 Author Share Posted October 29, 2003 Manny, Can you email me the file to [email protected] Thanks, Victor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbies KRB Posted January 8, 2004 Newbies Share Posted January 8, 2004 I too have a similar problem. I work for a school and we have a series for databases that link together. I would like to create a user interface that asks for username & password and then allows them into the approriate area and give them the access writes they need. At the moment we use the built in password facility which is ok but I don't know which password belongs to which user plus if I need to change it I have to go through all the files making the same changes. Hope someone can help. Cheers Keith Bolton [email protected] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kremlarkin Posted January 11, 2004 Share Posted January 11, 2004 Manny, Why don't you just post a zipped copy of your solution to this thread? That way anyone who chooses to browse the thread will have access to your solution and you won't be inundated with email requests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg M Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 This is a super-simple database login system I created that opens files based on a username. The password for full access is "Admin" - the file called Login Database is a custom login that asks users for a username and password, which it references against the file called Access. Each user has their own record in Access, containing the username, password, and which files should be opened. The same script in Login Database that validates the login also opens the specified databases. You can define reading/writing/printing permissions by having users enter a base password when opening Login Database, and define the same basic passwords throughout all the files and give the different groups appropriate access. This is just a basic shell but it can easily be applied to your databases. I didn't want to add in extra stuff that you would just have to take out when applying it to your databases. FM.zip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven H. Blackwell Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 I do again want to caution about the use of these log-on systems. They basically are insecure and they can severely compromise the security of solution files. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralph.nusser Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 At ISO FileMaker World (check it!) you find a nice login system called " [color:"red"]The Gateway ". The description says: Here is an incredible implementation of a login routine, allowing personalized access to a solution, user-specific privileges and preferences, system preferences, administrator settings and privileges, hierarchical access to the data, and even an activity log. You can open this one up and see how efficiently it has been made, then incorporate it into your own solution! The Gateway MAC The Gateway WIN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven H. Blackwell Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 The referenced system is a poster child for the insecurity inherent in these systems. It was broken wide open in less than 30 seconds. These systems are trouble. I advise your not using them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanBrill Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 Yeah, but there are programs floating around out there for about $40 that will give you the native FM password in a matter of moments. So I'm not sure a custom system is really that much worse than the native system. I think if I really needed security -- like running a reactor or an air traffic control system -- I'd choose something other than FM. my two cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ugo DI LUCA Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 Yes, as OAM pointed, and with many respect to Giuseppe's work, this kind of solution wouldn't be suitable as a Login routine. I'm not a hacker, but with even less than 30 seconds, you'd be able to screw up the whole file, and even delete the admin/admin password. I'm not that sure Giuseppe's demo was designed to demonstrate a login routine anyway. My 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven H. Blackwell Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 I've heard that argument before, and I am not buying into it. There are steps that can be taken to protect files, although these cracker programs can do a lot of damage in terms of extracting passwords. Several have been made to go away, and I hope that trend continues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatoli Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 My resume is that real security in FM doesn't exist. FM is sending valid passwords to client machine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIM1945 Posted February 28, 2004 Share Posted February 28, 2004 I have downloaded the attachemnt but i am unable to open login db, you mentioned that admin was the password, do i need a username also to be able to open the files and build by own usernam and passwords. thans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven H. Blackwell Posted February 29, 2004 Share Posted February 29, 2004 You aren't really going to do this are you? Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIM1945 Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 what i really needs is to be able to tell which operator took a message and whick opr delivered the message. i have only two computers peer to peer. messages are taken and delivered on each machine. sometime station 1 takes the message and station 2 delivers the message, i just need someone to identify who took the message and who delivered the message, thanks jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yafreax Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 Steve what suggestions do you have then? You are preaching not to do it, but aren't offering any solutions / files in return. I need a login system where the admin can create users and passwords and the users can only see their own records or records that the admin deems okay for everyone. I don't want to use the built in privelages because of the annoying "no access" tags... what then do you suggest other than "dont use that"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobWeaver Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 The Moyer and Bowers book "Filemaker Pro 5.5, techniques for developers" discusses the pitfalls of custom login systems, and then goes on to describe a system which avoids them. That's not to say that no one has discovered other weaknesses though. Brian Kennedy posted a sample solution framework using their technique. Here is the link: http://www.fmforums.com/threads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/74935/page/4/view/collapsed/sb/5/o/all/fpart/1 As I recall, the method uses a paused script for user ID and password entry. If you are using Filemaker 6, I suggest you replace this with a custom dialog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven H. Blackwell Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 Ever look to see what a "Halt Script" does to looping pause? THe suggestion about custom dialog is an excellent one. But be sure to assure that the solution can't be opened in an earlier version. The <no access> tags can be easily dismissed by the use of a Go To Related Record as I explained recently on FM Experts. I am trying to alert you all to dangers in the methods used in these log-on systems so that you don't wind up having to explain to your bosses or clients how your technique resulted in the fairly easy extraction or compromise of your data or files. The closer you stay to the built-in FMP system, the better off you are. yafreax asked: "what then do you suggest other than "dont use that"... " Use the built-in system. The fact that you or anyone else wants to do something else or wants a different functionality isn't material here. What is material is that if you use such a log-on system, you almost always degrade your security. I have already had to provide expert witness testimony is 2 cases involving loss of data and property in systems such as this and the attendant negligence and liability issues. I hope not to have to do that anymore anytime soon or at all. Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlequanta Posted March 5, 2004 Share Posted March 5, 2004 I have a solution that will work for you. I wrote it to control 25 databases for a flight training school. It manages groups (instructors, admin, dispatch, etc) and provides customized access to each database as well as access privledges. Email me and we can discuss it: [email protected] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobWeaver Posted March 5, 2004 Share Posted March 5, 2004 Ever look to see what a "Halt Script" does to looping pause? Yes, I have. That's why I suggested the custom dialog. However, even with a pause loop it's not necessarily impossible to make a secure login. You just have to make sure that if the user manages to cancel the login script, it's cancelled in such a way that he isn't logged in yet, and cannot get beyond the login layout and the login file. BTW, I'm not trying to encourage people to use custom logins. But if someone asks, I'll give them whatever information I can. I'm less concerned with the weaknesses of the login procedure than with other back doors into the files. You can spend a lot of time making the login script secure, and then completely overlook some simple thing in the rest of the solution that will let a hacker in with no effort. So, if you're doing a custom login, it's important to design the whole system from the ground up with security in mind. You can't just take an existing db solution, tack a login script on the front and expect it to be secure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven H. Blackwell Posted March 5, 2004 Share Posted March 5, 2004 " less concerned with the weaknesses of the login procedure than with other back doors into the files. You can spend a lot of time making the login script secure, and then completely overlook some simple thing in the rest of the solution that will let a hacker in with no effort." Exactly. And if a developer believes that the custom log-on provides security, and then that belief proves false--then these other vulnerabilities become even more exploitable. "You just have to make sure that if the user manages to cancel the login script, it's cancelled in such a way that he isn't logged in yet, and cannot get beyond the login layout and the login file" However by entering a known false log-in, you can frequently force open the "users" file, and then you cancel the script. Now you have an open "users" file that is in almost every case I have seen easy to exploit. Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taishi01 Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 Downloaded and tested the app out, wanted to view how it's done, but I can't seem to get full access to it. I was able to view test it with the Admin ID, but it won't take Admin as the password. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freecolours Posted March 17, 2004 Share Posted March 17, 2004 Did you know that hack programs are not able to hack an FM database password when you use an "!" symbol in your master password? Version: v6.x Platform: Mac OS X Panther Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobWeaver Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 Wanna bet? Actually, I should ask if you've tried them all. I wrote a password hack program about a year ago as a result of a discussion in this forum, in order to demonstrate how insecure Filemaker's built-in passwords are. I haven't found any special characters that would prevent the password from being found. But, it's possible that some of these hack programs do not have the complete encryption algorithm figured out, and so may fail with certain characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg M Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 BobWeaver, I've misplaced the password for a database of mine that I would like to recover. Would you happen to still have a working copy of that program? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg M Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 Jim, The databases open with a default low-access password for normal users. When you opening the databases to do work on them, hold down the Shift key. It will ask you for a password. ("Admin") Then you can show the Status Area, switch layouts, and create records that define access for your users. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg M Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 Admin is only the password to gain full access to the file - it will not work in the login system itself. Once you have full access to Access.fp5, run the script that says Show Status Area, then switch layouts. You will be able to see the logins I created. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaughan Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 All of this discussion about creating custom logins is obsolete: FMP 7 has it all built-in and facilitates building secure interfaces to manage it all. YEAH! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg M Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 Can't wait till FMP 7 Server comes out...! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobWeaver Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 Hi Greg Sorry, I don't do password recovery because I have no way to verify who is the legitimate owner of a database. I've done a couple of demonstrations on some empty files that a couple of people have sent me, but that was the extent of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaughan Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 No need to wait till server, it's all functional in plain old FM Pro 7. Even the Trial version. I've put something together already... when I get time I'll strip it out and get a demo happening. I'd welcome the security experts here like OAM, Bob and Ray (amongst others) to evaluate it. We can all learn from this together, learning FMP 7 is such a big job. I'll post it in the samples forum when it's done. Probably later today my time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobWeaver Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 Yeah. It looks like I have to upgrade to OSX now so I can play with the new toys. It looks to me that hosted files should now be very secure. However, files to which the user has direct access may still be susceptible to attack with many of the old methods (except that it won't be possible to retrieve passwords since only the pw hash is stored). And FM7's method of converting older files compromises their security, but it seems that FMI isn't interested in security for fp3 and fp5 files any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg M Posted March 24, 2004 Share Posted March 24, 2004 Alright, thanks, I'll just have to invest in the commercial products... Version: v6.x Platform: Windows 2000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlequanta Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 I think some of the benefits of downloading these solutions and even creating them and posting them up here, include demonstrating some of the inherent weaknesses of any solution. Really I would suggest people don't download a solution because it's not secure, it may just just perfect for the sort of application they're using. I was not surprised that Bob Weaver hacked into my login demo in a matter of minutes, but I was gobsmacked that the file was accessible after being "Permanently locked" by the developer package... In fact it's made me re-assess my approach to security within solutions, and for that i am grateful. The level of security that a person requires in their solution is entirely their own baily-wick. The Gateway package talked about here is definately not secure, but that doesn't mean that its completely useless. I think the approach used in its development was good, and if anything it's a great learning tool in filemaker development. Just my opinion. ps: I know encrypt my sensitive data with 128bit RC6 encryption Q Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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