Hello everyone,

I'm doing something I know I've done a number of times before, but for some reason, now I'm struggling with it.  I am a little rusty with FM, so it's possible I'm doing something silly...

I have my development done; it works great. My client is a few hundred miles away, so I'd like to separate data and interface to make changes whenever requested and simply ship him the new front end. I've done this before on much bigger projects; I've never had a problem.

Today, as I'm splitting and redirecting tables from the front-end file to the back-end file, all of my calculations are breaking.  Before the redirection, I'd have calculations that look like this:

After the redirection, the same calculations no longer work, and I have this:

I don't ever remember having this problem before, but as I said, there's some rust on my brain.  Can anyone clue me in on what's going sideways here?  And I'll apologize in advance if it's a rookie error.

Thanks very much for your help

Brent
 

Watch this and you'll probably discover where you have forgotten something:

 

4 minutes ago, Søren Dyhr said:

Watch this and you'll probably discover where you have forgotten something:

 

Yes, I actually watched that video a few days ago as a refresher (or to see if there was a new way of doing it.

Keep in mind, this was me doing a subset of my 100ish tables, committing the change, then looking at the front end.  Now I'm trying completing them all before looking -- perhaps a partial job won't make everything hook up...

Nope -- tried all the tables.  Same result.

I'm baffled.

5 hours ago, BrentBollmeier said:

Keep in mind, this was me doing a subset of my 100ish tables

Tabel Occurences or genuine tables? I have never encountered the later, could something ...have gone wrong, during development and spec'ing the desires and behaviours of each table - since the urge to keep unstored calc's pertain ... the objectives are as I recall it, to keep data and the massage of the data separate?

What I mean is, have you done something to the structure, which prevents "Lobotomi" ... not that Todd, in the video says some but not necessarily all!

--sd

Edited April 20, 20241 yr by Søren Dyhr

You're saying that the calculation fields should be in the front-end as opposed to the back-end?  Yes, I do see your point.  However, as I mentioned, I've done this many times before and never had to go to those lengths to split the database.

3 hours ago, BrentBollmeier said:

You're saying that the calculation fields should be in the front-end as opposed to the back-end? 

No what I'm saying is that the unstored fields should be kept, at the bare minimum, and instead be substituted with event triggers only firering scripts when it's absolutely nessersary. 

But the ... in my book large number of tables, gives away ... a less than ideal normalization of the structure.

Perhaps you need to remove each old connection, evertytime you redirect, instead of doing them all at once, after redirecting. The place where the "occurrence in graph" should be completely empty ... when the deed is done. 

--sd

2 hours ago, Søren Dyhr said:

No what I'm saying is that the unstored fields should be kept, at the bare minimum, and instead be substituted with event triggers only firering scripts when it's absolutely nessersary. 

But the ... in my book large number of tables, gives away ... a less than ideal normalization of the structure.

Perhaps you need to remove each old connection, evertytime you redirect, instead of doing them all at once, after redirecting. The place where the "occurrence in graph" should be completely empty ... when the deed is done. 

--sd

100 instances of tables in my relationship graph.  Only 30 actual tables.  Also, I tried doing them a few at a time with the same result.

17 minutes ago, BrentBollmeier said:

100 instances of tables in my relationship graph.  Only 30 actual tables.  Also, I tried doing them a few at a time with the same result.

Strange, there must be something you scate over with less meticulosity - do you clone the file first? 

--sd

20 minutes ago, Søren Dyhr said:

Strange, there must be something you scate over with less meticulosity - do you clone the file first? 

--sd

Here's what I did:

I figured it out... and it was so embarrassing I don't want to admit to it in public... 😅

Thanks for your help - I genuinely appreciate it!

Brent

Edited April 20, 20241 yr by BrentBollmeier

6 hours ago, BrentBollmeier said:

Only 30 actual tables. 

Glad you discovered where the weekness was ... but I'm still a little puzzled with the relatively high tabels count the solution here consists off? Perhaps is just my imagination which aren't stretching far enough? Are you making subgrupings of entities, if yes why? An example being 

There is in the few lines you have reveals to us where more than one calculation fields containing exactly same calc - why is that?

--sd

Edited April 20, 20241 yr by Søren Dyhr

47 minutes ago, Søren Dyhr said:

Glad you discovered where the weekness was ... but I'm still a little puzzled with the relatively high tabels count the solution here consists off? Perhaps is just my imagination which aren't stretching far enough? Are you making subgrupings of entities, if yes why? An example being 

There is in the few lines you have reveals to us where more than one calculation fields containing exactly same calc - why is that?

--sd

It's a bit of a complex app that tracks a complex process, each step with many parameters.  And I only have the multiples of the same calc for debugging/dev purposes - I hadn't cleaned them up yet, that's all.

This is my relationship graph.

Edited April 20, 20241 yr by BrentBollmeier

7 hours ago, BrentBollmeier said:

I figured it out... and it was so embarrassing I don't want to admit to it in public... 😅

That's too bad. Because it could help someone else struggling with the same problem.

Now we have a thread of considerable length and of absolutely no use to anyone.

 

Edited April 20, 20241 yr by comment

3 minutes ago, comment said:

That's too bad. Because it could help someone else struggling with the same problem.

Now we have a thread of considerable length and of absolutely no use to anyone.

 

Fair point. 

After splitting the database, I was looking at the front-end file with the tables still in it, and not the back-end file. 

1 hour ago, BrentBollmeier said:

And I only have the multiples of the same calc for debugging/dev purposes - I hadn't cleaned them up yet, that's all.

I seems to remember that, BOM's (Bill of materials) could benefit from a recursive self-join structure ... in order to facilitate sub-parts of sub-parts?

--sd

7 minutes ago, Søren Dyhr said:

I seems to remember that, BOM's (Bill of materials) could benefit from a recursive self-join structure ... in order to facilitate sub-parts of sub-parts?

--sd

Good idea.  Thanks!

2 hours ago, BrentBollmeier said:

Good idea.  Thanks!

Perhaps others could chip in here, because I can't remember where I saw it, on the other hand exists a recipe here:

https://filemakerhacks.com/2019/03/27/bill-of-materials/

--sd

 

Edited April 20, 20241 yr by Søren Dyhr

With the availability of the data migration tool and products like OttoFMS to automate updates to production files, I have to question the need to separate the ui from the data. 
 

disclaimer. I work for Proof+Geist. OttoFMS is free. We don’t separate solutions as an answer to updating solutions. We might separate for concerns. 

26 minutes ago, bcooney said:

With the availability of the data migration tool and products like OttoFMS to automate updates to production files, I have to question the need to separate the ui from the data. 
 

disclaimer. I work for Proof+Geist. OttoFMS is free. We don’t separate solutions as an answer to updating solutions. We might separate for concerns. 

I wasn't familiar with OttoFMS, but I'll look into it.

I've just always been more comfortable splitting things up to drop in UI changes without worrying about the data.

19 hours ago, BrentBollmeier said:

It's a bit of a complex app that tracks a complex process

It's a tough call to decide, between Normailization or sub typing:

 

17 hours ago, bcooney said:

I have to question the need to separate the ui from the data. 

It would however be a nice feature, to have like in Visualstudio under compilation, where the compiler hover over the solutions implications and have it substitute out for better code, than the matters the developer originally have entered. An example being in filemaker, the excessive use of unstored calc-fields visible on layouts, pasted in there merely because you can get away with it in an spreadsheet'ish realm. Couldn't some AI make the comments as to why certain lines have been replaced with better ones? 

In one of my holidays, did I encounter a landlord in a B&B, having a sideline of assembler pattern recognition, where he suggested faster changes to the code, and actually made a living that way ... something AI would master with no sweat broken?

--sd

Edited April 21, 20241 yr by Søren Dyhr

20 hours ago, BrentBollmeier said:

I wasn't familiar with OttoFMS, but I'll look into it.

I've just always been more comfortable splitting things up to drop in UI changes without worrying about the data.

Does that truly pan out? Even when data separation was done to avoid error prone imports, I often found the need to add fields to the data file. 
 

Soren, transactional scripting is our approach for denormalization, which is often required for performance.