Kiosk difficult?

[PiedPiper]

Ok. I love the idea. The Owner is a control freak and he wants it locked down. And I'm a control freak because otherwise our people get them selves in trouble and he and I spend all day fixing what they do or finding their window they lost. Yep. Win XP and FM 6. But I'm seriously considering Developer and need some straight answers (as always).

1) I realize (I think) that I need to provide everything for our staff and I pretty much do now. But are there things I need to provide that might prove difficult for me - intermediate level (maybe bit lower)?

2) Is it difficult to do? I mean, do I buy Developer and click a button and it creates the files for me or what? Time-wise, is it difficult to learn and do?

3) Will this run on network Win 2000 with FM Server 5.5, and eventualy Lasso w/MySQL?

Thanks

Pete

[CobaltSky]

Hi Pete,

You're asking for facts, not opinions, so I'll get the opinion out of the way up front. What 'kiosk mode' is good for is... well, *kiosks* - but it's not necessarily so well suited for general purpose interface and application security. Now, where was I. Oh yes, facts.

1. Kiosk mode is not especially difficult to implement. You set up at least one password that doesn't have full access (to define fields, scriptmaker or layout mode), check a checkbox in the developer tool (a mini application that comest with FMD), then run the application through the developer tool (which in a nutshell means you click a few confirmation buttons and wait un til it says it has finished). Then whenever the solution is opened using the restricted password(s), it will launcxh in kiosk mode.

*but*

2. In conjunction with this (and preferably before-hand) you have to create a fully scripted interface because everything will have to be done via buttons on layouts as there will be no menus and no command-key control of the application. That can require some considerable forethought, depending on the nature of your solutution.

3. Yes it will run on a network, on all supported flavours of Win, and it will run (as a kiosk) from FMS.

4. Lasso and MySQL, however, have no meaning in relation to kiosk mode (or vice-versa). Kiosk mode is an interface that appears in the FileMaker client application (ie the desktop edition of FileMaker Pro). Lasso draws data from your database(s) and slots it into an alternative front end that will appear in a browser. You can send some javascript to the browser to manipulate the interface to some extent, but FM won't do that for you - kiosk mode or not.

[PiedPiper]

Sure, okay, not sure I understood about security but I trust your opinion.

I'm just tired of people doing what they shouldn't. First thing new salesman says is 'Oh! What's this stuff up here.' and they start clicking on the menu bar. Click-happy fools - bouncing here and there. I don't want them to even see that stuff because I can't script to make sure they do it right. What do you do?

Sure wish I could remove whole top bar and use that space instead, or at least use it myself with what I want to put there. I put buttons to do everything they need it just seems redundant and they lose themselves in all the windows.

Ive been reading about plugins but Troi doesn't seem to make it disappear either, or Script It or any of them. I use privileges for some of it but it doesn't stop them enough. Anything else I can do except threaten to break their fingers if they touch it?

Thank you for your ideas,

Pete

[SteveB]

Kiosks have another limitation...they can't be minimized (on Windows). I have converted my kiosk solution to a runtime using Dacons Menu Control (www.dacons.net).

Remove the Status Bar. With the Menu Control, you can replace the entire FM menu Bar with you own design. Each menu has commands that execute scripts. The user can't do anything except what capabilities you have given them. You still need Developer however.

Steve

[PiedPiper]

HI Steve, Menu Control looks like what I want. Is it diffiuclt to use and learn? I talked to the Owner and its worth it if its something I can do. It looks like it turns the regular menu items into MY SCRIPTS! I can put anything we want on them? Now THIS IS COOL!

No more worthless menus with duplicate buttons on everything - or worse - no more messin' up by staff. Very professional way to go, I think.And the menu will change depending upon User Accesss? Too good.

Question please:

Medium Developer License: Allows for unlimited distribution with your FileMaker solution, including runtime. Your clients can have networks with up to 10 computers using MenuControl.

Does this mean that I could use it for my current job but also use it for another business with 10 networked computers if I wanted to? I don't understand the UNLIMITED distribution part. Ive been asked about doing a system for the business next door also. Maybe I could get back some of that cost by charging them part of it. But I don't understand licenses and stuff. Can someone help me out understanding this in regular talk?

Oh, and I'm looking at Windows Utility. Will Menu Control work with Windows Utility or is this overkill? They don't really seem to do the same things. I want Window Utility to control windows.

Pete

[SteveB]

Menu Control is very easy to use. They provide a Menu Composer that creates the menu code (which is really just text that goes into a global text field).

Each item on the menu runs a script in the file you are in. You can make the menu bar look like anything you want. It took me about an hour to construct a really sophisticated menu bar with all kinds of sub menus. What it won't do, which it should is handle a value list as a menu. I have overcome this, but it is a little bit of a pain. I change menus based on where in the system the user is; generally I change when I change files...sometimes when the user is doing a specific function. It's only one External call. I keep the different menus in global repeating text fields.

I bought the unlimited developers license for the Menu Control plugin. Is this what your question is? With it, I can distribute my software without any additional charges. I think it was $329.00

I don't use Windows Utility. My overwhelming preference is to use Win Batch which has allowed me to do all kinds of things: dialogs, popup calendars, file manipulation, MS Word mail merge with no user intevention. I have it with the compiler, which creates .EXEs that I can distribute freely. Its very much like a Swiss Army knife, and not really hard to use. I've used it for dialogs that Filemaker could do, but would require that you keep switching layouts. Generally, I dislike doing that, especially when the same dialog needs to be used in many places and even across files.

Steve

[CobaltSky]

Hi Pete and Steve,

We have a developer license for MenuControl here also and have used it for some projects. We also use MenuMagic (from NMCI) as an alternative in some situations (it provides an overlapping feature set but works somewhat differently from MenuControl). From what you've said you are trying to do, perhaps MenuControl will best suit, but you might want to check out the other options before you commit.

The MenuControl developer license does indeed mean that you can use it for multiple projects distributed to different clients or end-users (or the same project sold to multiple companies) just so long as the number of users in any one client company doesn't exceed the number specified in the license you've purchased.

More broadly, as Steve says, MenuControl is not too difficult to use - at least not if you use the composer utility they provide. However there are a couple of additional points point to bear in mind:

1. MenuControl eliminates *all* the menus and so, as with kiosk mode, you will have to provide your own scripts for everything that users are to be able to do (though a selection of those scripts, as you say, can be called from your custom menus rather than from buttons).

2. If you have different menus (and therefore different scripts) in different files, you will have to be very careful to control navigation so that users only ever move between files using your scripts (because you will be building the new menu via script) because otherwise they can end up in one file, but with the menus that relate to another file.

This last issue is more problematic on x-plat solutions. On Windows, you can maximize all the db windows and lock them that way to skirt around the issue, but that's not an option on Mac.

I agree that the plug-in based options, when carefully implemented provide a more appropriate and professional end result than kiosk mode (except perhaps, as I remarked earlier, for *kiosks*)...

[PiedPiper]

Hi Ray and Steve

Wow. I will look at MenuMagic too. But Menu Control looks like what I want thanks.

Ray, you said "On Windows, you can maximize all the db windows and lock them that way to skirt around the issue..."

Do you mean using Window Utility or will MenuControl do this? I want to maximizeand lock - except when I want a cute little window to hover until they make a selection then it'll leave - - But I want control that they can't 'x' out of program. And will Window Utility protect from 'x' out of a script message dialog box? That's a bummer. I looked at Windows Utility a few months back when you mentioned it. Have you used it since then? They were coming out with new version. Will it stop 'x' and not allow minimizing?

Thanks for all your help. And what's a kiosk??

Pete

[CobaltSky]

Hi,

A 'kiosk' is a solution designed to be accessed in a public space by members of the general public, often with a touch-screen and generally with only the monitor on view (eg built into a stainless steel pillar etc). In such situations it's appropriate to black out everything except the contents of the current window, and that's what FileMaker's 'kiosk mode' was designed for.

As regards MenuControl, it provides its own modifications to window handling on Windows which will prevent users freely restoring maximized windows etc. It also provides a custom function for Mac which is supposed to lock background windows to prevent the user from navigating to them without using scripts, but we've found it to be inconsistent in operation, which is a major headache.

I'm afraid you'll find that the kind of techniques you have referred to such as getting 'a cute little window to hover' are not going to co-exist very comfortably with MenuControl and I suggest you try it out to see what you're up against before you commit. The issue is that MenuControl is designed on the assumption that on Windows, you will keep all db windows maximized at all times, so when you break out of this mold, the behaviour of the windows can be rather less than elegant.

Whilst it is possible to use MenuControl and WindowUtility within the same solution (and I've done so successfully on occasion) the two are somewhat uncomfortable bedfellows. Their functions overlap and the results you get if you call a function from one (eg Wind-DisableWindowClose) after a function that does some of the same things has been called from the other (eg Cont-BuildMenu) are somewhat variable and sometimes produce unexpected by-products - and none of this is documented anywhere. It requires a good deal of trial and error and lots of testing to arrive at combinations which work satisfactorily on a variety of system versions and/or platforms.

Finally, whilst WindowUtility is an excellent and very versatile plug-in, as at its latest release (ie v2.2 on windows) it does not disable the close box on scripted 'Show Message[ ]' dialogs son the Windows platform. I don't know what their timeline is for a future release, but I'd be surprised if they address this, since WindowUtility is designed to act on the db windows, rather than dialogs.

If you want to address that issue, you'd likely be better off exploring one of the various dialog plug-ins (eg Troi Dialog, SimpleDialog, Atomic Dialog etc) which give you alternative dialogs with a lot more options and parameters with which to control their behavior.

[PiedPiper]

Kiosk! The way you referenced it, I thought you were going to give some little-known reference or insite into its meaning or origin.

Okay, I'll give up the cute windows. But I have a preview control (from one of your demos BTW) that hovers. guys love using the reports now. Id hate to lose this. thanks for all the info. I'm looking at Troi Activator right now for execute script when leaving field. Might as well add Dialog; guess I'd better check ScriptIt also as well as WinBatch. But it's getting expensive now.

Ok but Menu Control will stop them opening the FILE or WINDOW menu options and go where they shouldn't? And it'll keep the window maximized? That's all I really need here so I don't need Window Utility. Well, I guess I could use Troi Diolog in Print Preview, right? Would it (and Troi Activator) work well with Menu Control? I need to narrow the field a bit, I think.

What would you do? Oh and will it hide the task bar?

Pete

[PiedPiper]

Wait! Can Winbatch do what Troi Dialog will do? And will it do what Troi Activator will do? Exit field run script? Because if so, that might be a way to go!

[CobaltSky]

Hi,

I can confirm that Troi Dialog, Activator and MenuControl are comfortable bedfellows, but I don't use WinBatch because it isn't x-plat (which is a major criterion for the bulk of what we do here).

Maybe Steve can fill you in further on that front...

[CobaltSky]

PiedPiper said:..Oh and will it hide the task bar?

Sorry, I overlooked to respond to your last question.

In short, no. MenuControl includes the 'Cont-RemoveToolBars' function and WindowUtility includes the 'Wind-HideStatusBar' function which will remove the space-eating band that runs along the bottom of the FileMaker application window in the Windows OS (the one which displays 'helpful' lines of text that say "For Help, press F1" and such...). But neither of them control features outside the application window.

There are other plug-ins which will do this, but it runs somewhat contrary to the principle of 'playing nicely' with the OS and other applications - for example it inhibits users checking email or looking up a spreadsheet without completely exiting your solution first (unless they know the power-user tricks such as alt-tab etc). Same deal as with kiosk mode, really.

[PiedPiper]

Oh yeah, same deal as kiosk - true. I need to get my head off trying to stop people from doing anything but what I want or the owner wants. Appreciate your help Ray.

Well now the balls in my court - reviewing and deciding what to do and go with. Thank you for explaing all of this to me. And if Steve reads this and can clarify a bit on WinBatch I'd atpreciate it also but I'll check it out. Sometimes their websites don't really say what they will do and won't - in relation to Filemaker. thank God for you guys or Id still be mowing lawns. And i still may be if I don't figure this all out.

Pete

[SteveB]

You can stop users from accessing the Status bar...once it is hidden and the FM Menu is removed, only you can restore it. You can also prevent users from minimizing a window and zooming as well. Ray is right though: its crucial that you have to make sure that you install and remove menus when switching files or sections. Since I started out with a kiosk, most of my navigation files already existed so the transformation was easy.

Now for Win Batch: It won't handle exiting a field, as it can't be tightly embedded in FM. Its not techically a plugin, although I use it that way. What it really is is a Windows automation and control language. While it can clearly build dialogs, I use Troi Dialog most of the time because its much quicker to write one External statement then it is to mess with WinBatch. However, more complex dialogs can't be done with any of the dialog plugins so when necessary I build it in WB. As I pointed out, when I have a complex dialog that needs to be called from many places AND I need to return back to those screens, I use a WB procedure.

I've even used WB to pass keystrokes to FM to automate it internally, but I don't like seeing the screens flash as the keystrokes are executed. It has superior file handling capabilities: it can send SQL statements; it handles file and folder manipulation; you could even install an enire application with it including creating a folder on the Start Menu and icons on the desktop. I use it to back up the user's files through a file zipping extender and writing to a Zip drive.

Steve