Which first? Chicken or egg?

[PiedPiper]

Help please? I'm glad its Friday. TGIF major problem help please?

I got embarased today by our secretaries. at least I have a few days tos solve this thing for them. okay, I though I was gettin smart and created a file for them to type in their people they call all the time. so far so good. But then they wanted a pupup so they could choose type of person. No prob, I tell them smiling wisely.

I've been learning about popup and have changed many existing sales fields to popup in other files. They want to base it on existing types, no problem. Ive done that many times (okay, six but whose counting).

I do a value list 'from field' type. smart, I think, I am!! It's always worked before.

They gather around computer and I puff out thinking now they'd see how grate fileMaker is (and me, I guess, darn) and they add the first record and it says no value list defined. Great. I check, yep it's there saying to use Type field. Try again, nope. So i check format and change to allow other, they add type - great! It TOOK IT.

They add another record and NOPE, not there. not on the popup. Now theyre saying program eats what they put in. Click list again, not there.

Sooo, I wondered how to start this thing when no recrds are there to begin with. And how can they add to it? There is a edit listed but its grey and won't let me select it. No prob I say while they laugh...

So I delete the two records and choose the other popup and it says not value list defined. Talk about a bad hair day.

Now they're hootin' I'm flipping through manual pages frantically while they roll on floor. I tell them I'll make it custom and they can tell me what to put in and i'll even type the dumb list for them, but they want to control it. They tell me, as I head out the door that i probably trained the computer to eat their stuff and that's probably what happend to their excel spreadsheet yesterday too! Oh, very funny.

ive searched through every post in value lists (god, there's a bunch) but no answers so it must be very obvious but I don't get this. Is my computer screwey or am I? Manual? nope. Help? nope. I made their Friday great ... but mine sucked.

So, which comes first? the chicken or the egg? How can I 'start' a list in Value List when it won't let me start it to begin with. And why won't it keep what they put in it?

I offered to type the custom types in myself but they said they wanted to control it. I almost told them to figure it out themselfs since they were so smart. please help me save face on Monday. if I don't have answers for them, I think i'll go work in the mill instead.

Pete the f___-up

[-Queue-]

Yikes! That doesn't sound too good. In your Value List definition, do you have it set to use 'All values' or 'only related values'?

I just made the attached file and it looks okay to me.

Also, is your type field set as text?

valuelisttype.zip

[PiedPiper]

thanks queue, i had the same thing but its at work right now and I'm home. But i'm sure its the same. Except i had popup menu. This works. oh, we're using 5.5 I think.

I hope it's their computer. I'd feel much better if thats the reason. i ... wait, now it won't work again. I deleted the record changed to pupup list now it won't let me select edit or other but it lets me type in anything and keep it. Now i'm really confused. I've never had this happen before.

I switched 650 sales records to popups on many fields by using ... or you asked if it was related - no, it's using all values. I don't know how i would want to use the related part yet. But its always worked before in my sales.

could the file be bad? I mean the file at work?

Pete

[-Queue-]

Pop-up menus allow 'other', pop-up lists don't. But, as you noticed, you can enter in whatever value into the list that you'd like and it becomes the same as 'other'. When you create a new record after that, you should be able to choose from what you just entered or to enter a new one into the field as before.

[PiedPiper]

Files bad ... thank god ... but its a new file with no records,. oh, how can I prove to them its the computer and not me. i like menu better than list but they both are screwey or I am. Must be me. A mill sounds good rigt now and a beer.

Thanks for the file. Maybe I'll use yours, can you add name and phone?

P

[-Queue-]

Both menu and list have their pros and cons. It all depends on how many values you estimate will be showing (scrolling down a menu with thousands of records is not highly enjoyable) and what features you would like to have available. Menus allow editing and adding, while lists only allow adding by simply typing in the field you have formatted as such. I doubt the file is really bad. I think perhaps you just weren't prepared for how things react when there are no records in a file. Things usually look better/easier when you have a set of records to work with already. But once that first one is created, the rest is a breeze.

Feel free to PM me if you need to. I'd be happy to help more if I can.

[-Queue-]

This helps illustrate a lesson I have to learn again every so often. Always test and test your ideas before you demonstrate them to your users, for your own sake. Even if you're not quite sure what you are doing, you will appear more reliable and knowledgeable and give your users greater trust and respect for what you do.

I had to relearn this lesson again just last week when I updated 6 of our offices with new files only to have complaint calls roll in a few hours later, prompting a double update the same day. Not a great way to build confidence. Don't get cocky and always test, test, and test again. Your users will appreciate a professional result much more than an 'oops' with lots of cleanup time afterward.

[PiedPiper]

Thanks Queue. well theyre not my users - they use me. I'm the dummy that is trying to show them what we did in sales. Its a wondrful program, us guys don't have problems at all. Ray do you think its the file ? Or am I going whackoh?

i'll never agree to this again. not with them watching. You are right. the guys just pat my back and say i'll figure it out and I do. but im not doing anything for them woman anymore accept maybe the receptonist.

[-Queue-]

but im not doing anything for them woman anymore accept maybe the receptonist.

lmao Is she that intensively attractive that you'd have no problems looking like a fool in front of her again? In that case, where do you work, and are they hiring?

[PiedPiper]

HA ... no, well she's kinda cute, but she didn't laugh at me ... she looked like she felt sorry for me. that's kinda worse. Well, no, nothing is worse than them hee hawin' when I was trying to help them.

Thanks for helping me but im still unsure whether its the file, their computer or me. I guess I'll go in this weekend and try to figure it out. It shouldn't say there's no value list defined - it should say there's no data in there yet. IMHO, Defined means defined. And I defined it.

And why wouldn't it keep the other entry? Maybe i'll give up ... I doubt I can save my rep, what little I had with them anyway. Sales likes me - everything works great there.

Pete

[-Queue-]

Well, semantically, I think you would be correct in saying you had defined it. However, you set it to use values based on a field and when you start with zero records, there is no information in the fields to define it. It would probably be better if it said 'null values' or something that was more accurate. And if you hadn't checked 'allow editing' for the menu, then there would be no way to enter data so it could be 'defined'. The list wouldn't do this; it would just pop up and display empty space.

Regarding keeping the entry. Did you have the same problem with the file I posted? I didn't. Once I created the first record and entered a value, the next record I created had the first field's value as the only option.

[CobaltSky]

Hello Pete,

I doubt that there is a problem with the file - or with the computer, for that matter. I think that instead there are simply a few misconceptions about how differently configured value lists work.

If you present users with a custom value list as either a pop-up list or a pop-up menu, the 'Include edit...' option appears when you attach the value list to a field, so that users can edit the custom list. If it is not a custom list, but takes values from a field, the 'edit...' option is greyed out because to change (or ad to) the value list, users don't need to edit the list as such, but simply to add a new/different value to the field itself.

The technique for adding an item (one that is not on the list already) to the field is different for pop-up menus vs pop-up lists. Menus are 'locked' to control what is entered, so if you provide users with a menu and want them to be able to add to it, you will have to select the option to:

Include "Other..." item to allow entry of other values

which is available in the Field format dialog when you select a pop-up menu field style.

If you use a pop-up list instead, there is no need for the 'include other...' option, because users can click directly into the field to type in a new entry. With pop-up lists, users always have this option by default, so you don't have to do anything (as you do with menus) to ensure they will be able to add new values. For the reason, the Include Other... option is greyed out when you choose a pop-up list field style.

As Queue has noted, if you define a list to use values from a field, then present the users with a file that has no records (and therefore no values) in it, it is not surprising if the list has no values on it. It would be worrying if it were otherwise!

Where it appears you may have gone wrong is by providing the users with a menu rather than a list (which means they can't click into the field to enter data directly) and then failing to enable the option to 'Include "Other..." item to allow entry of other values', thus giving the users no way to add a value.

The solution is either to:

1. enable the Include "Other..." item to allow entry of other values option for the pop-up menu, or

2. provide users with a pop-up list instead, and explain to them how to click into the field to add a value if it isn't on the list.

[-Queue-]

Thank you, Ray. I think you've helped spare Pete's (and my) sanity.

[PiedPiper]

No prob with your file. That must be what happened. A fool at work, a fool on this Users list. Well, it can only go up from here.

i was going to go get a beer but i think I'll play with value lists instead. But im still going to test that file and maybe run scandisk on their system. I don't want to take ady chances.

P

[PiedPiper]

Hi Ray, that makes total sense. thats what i did alright. You would think they would act the same. I never noticed but we use menu because its easier and I dont have other or edit because the sals records were there already.

Can i take this to work to show them? Why can't fm keep them the same?Well, i guess I now know what to do with an new file ... allow edit of menu on new files for the women.

i won't have to go to ffice this weekend, thanks ... maybe I can turn this around yet. Can I show them what you guys said - not my part tho, I dont wantthem to know what I went thru, especially the receptionist.

Queue and Ray ... my heros.

Pete the developer (kidding)

[CobaltSky]

PiedPiper said:

...I guess I'll go in this weekend and try to figure it out. It shouldn't say there's no value list defined - it should say there's no data in there yet. IMHO, Defined means defined. And I defined it.... /snip

Pete,

I think you'll find that the text you're referring to reads:

[color:"white"].............................................................

[PiedPiper]

Well it surely says that alright. amazing how being laughed at can twist one's view. i saw the words not defined. Panic sat in like I didnt do it right.

apologies to you and Queue for taking your time because i didn't read something. I keep telling our guys to "READ" computer error messages DUH!

Trying to be a wise ass just isn't worth it.

Pete

[-Queue-]

Confucious say: much better to be wise ass than to be dumb ass

[borzhd]

One thought

If you have two files (anywhere) with the same name Filemaker will get very sick. It has made me a little crazy a few times.

John