Find - [ENTER] vs. [RETURN] = GO!

[LaRetta]

I am designing Find layouts which need to function smoothly cross-platform. I recall something about Macs and Windows handling the [ENTER] and [RETURN] differently. Unfortunately, I only have a Windows system for testing. I'm not sure how Mac's handle the scenario below. Could someone enlighten a newbie?

I want a User to enter criteria in a global then, instead of having to click another button [GO], simply hit [ENTER]. Questions: 1) Does a Mac have an Enter key or is it called Return? 2) Would hitting the Mac Enter (or Return) key activate a script? 3) Can a script be activated upon leaving a field or is it even necessary to hit Enter or Return? And 4) Would it be better to have Users click a [Go] button? Simple questions, I'm sure, but I've seen so many variations that I want to design this in the best way for my Users. Personally, I dislike entering the criteria and THEN having to click a button. Any suggestions for me?

[kennedy]

1) Does a Mac have an Enter key or is it called Return?

Both... Enter is the one on the numeric keypad.

2) Would hitting the Mac Enter (or Return) key activate a script?

Well, you can Pause a script and hitting Enter will cause it to continue.

3) Can a script be activated upon leaving a field or is it even necessary to hit Enter or Return?

To my knowledge, FMP doesn't enable this like it ought to. But there is minimal support. You can write a loop that keeps checking for you to exit, Pausing a second or so between each check. Or you can trigger lookups that get certain things done. There are probably a few other techniques that aren't coming to mind right now.

4) Would it be better to have Users click a [Go] button?

That depends. In another active thread, I just proposed a situation where the loop makes sense. I am trying to simulate the normal behavior of creating a related record by simply filling in the blank row. That is intuitive behavior for the user. But there are other cases where I think a Go button, although requiring an extra click, is far more obvious to the users. You don't want the user sitting there going... "Uhh, what do I do now? How do I get that dialog to popup? Is it in a menu somewhere?" and so on. And the subtlety between [Enter] and [Return] is NOT commonly understood. Most programs on Mac and PC treat them as the same; most users don't think there is a difference.

HTH.

[harryk]

Though I've no experience with plugins, there are plug-ins that make it possible trigger scripts on pressing a key.

About [enter] and [return], there are subtle differences that can cause tedious effects if users are not aware of the differences.

When you are in a field, you can leave the field by just placing the mousecursor somewhere else, or by hitting [TAB] or [ENTER].

When in a field, [RETURN] does not leave the field, but makes a carriage return in the field.

This is often an unwanted effect, and the tricky part is often that in the field you can not see that the carriage return is added when the field is designed for one line of text. When printing addresses, for example, the 'error' pops up, causing an extra blank line.

Making solutions for others, this is something to inform your users about. It might even be an idea to create special scripts just to find such errors and eliminating unwanted CR's.. All address fields, name fields for example are in most cases ment to be on one line.

Harryk

[LaRetta]

Thanks for the information. If both Mac & Windows handle the request the same, I guess my only decision is whether to require they click a button. I just want consistency throughout the design and between platforms. I guess, since I will be activating a script, I could always add something like Status(CurrentPlatform) to correct any inconsistencies in the way they respond. So, on a Mac, our regular Windows [ENTER] says [RETURN]? If I don't use a button, I want to have a flag come up, saying something like "After entering your search critera, hit [ENTER]" Will Mac Users understand what I mean without having to also add "Hit Return?" Again, thanks for the input. I really appreciate it, Brian (or HTH) or Kennedy!

[LaRetta]

Thanks Harry! I've noticed (and created) a bunch of carriage returns doing the same thing. It's a pain to deal with, and I have it on my list of 'must solve.' For every inconsistency between platforms, I believe a Users confidence will be shaken a bit. And, without a Mac to test the results, I'm a bit nervous. I've tried to 'steal' Users' Macs at work ... but NO WAY! Geeez, like they have work to do or something.

Thanks for letting me use this forum for Mac questions, in addition to everything else ya'all do for me!

[kennedy]

If I don't use a button, I want to have a flag come up, saying something like "After entering your search critera, hit [ENTER]" Will Mac Users understand what I mean without having to also add "Hit Return?"

The Mac keyboard says "return" on the alpha keyboard and "enter" on the numeric keypad... so Mac users will figure it out quickly. Your problem will be PC users, where many PC keyboards say "enter" on both or "return" or any number of other things... especially with older PC keyboards... inconsistency is common.

I really appreciate it, Brian (or HTH) or Kennedy!

Heh. HTH = hope that helps.

[harryk]

From your wonderings and aloud thinking, I suspect that you still suppose a difference (considering FM) in the effects of ENTER and RETURN on the different platforms.

As far as I know, and I may be confirmed on that, there is no difference between mac and windows as it comes to the effects of ENTER and RETURN.

I just want consistency throughout the design and between platforms. I guess, since I will be activating a script, I could always add something like Status(CurrentPlatform) to correct any inconsistencies in the way they respond

Don't think this is necessary. Let your point of departure be that FM in Win and Mac works the same; it's the same code.

It would be a nice discusssion/threat about where the Status(CurrentPlatform) is really handy, and there are situations it is.

I am developing a solution for both Win/Mac, but I use Status(CurrentPlatform) zero times.

Harryk

[LaRetta]

Thanks Harry and HTH (smile)! I appreciate you taking the time to clarify further for me. Hmmm, I believe I heard that pop-ups would be a good time to use Status(CurrentPlatform) ... but I could be wrong, I frequently am! Bless ya for responding (and so quickly)!

[kenneth2k1]

As a user myself, I would prefer not to see any messages telling me to hit a button. You would instead have a button click before the whole thing to get rid of the "Hit enter key" message? I like having the process described in the manual or on the layout itself.

On a side note, you would be well advised to test every aspect of your solution on the other platforms it may be ran on.

There is a plugin called Oazium Events that lets you activate a script upon exiting a field.

Ken

[LaRetta]

Thanks Ken! I suspect you are right ... not what I wanted to hear though. I guess I'll just sneak into the office at night for testing!

In case anyone wants to know, Oazium Events can be found at:

http://www.wmotion.com/oazium/events/

It's a bit steep for our non-profit budget ($785 for 25) ... hmmm, maybe Users will just have to adjust. I'm going to be spoiling them in so many other ways, after all ... they'll get to use FileMaker!

[Kurt Knippel]

Just as a followup to the whole Enter vs Return thing.

Here is what happens the Return key, which is ALWAYS on the alpha part of the keyboard is the key for the End of Line or Paragraph character. This is all that it does, it is simple sending an ASCII character to the keyboard buffer.

The Enter key is usually on the numeric keypad, sometime missing entirely or sometimes a special function of the Return character. The enter key most often functions as a click of the default or selected button.

The above actions are consistant across every computing platform I have ever used.

[LaRetta]

Thanks for the clarification Kurt. I guess what's confusing to me is, on the alpha of my keyboard (Windows) it 'says' enter and on the numeric it says enter. I've always assumed that the enter on my alpha was the same as 'return.' So, if I wanted to display a message to Users, could I use something to the effect of ... Status(CurrentPlatform) and if Macs display "hit RETURN to continue, and if Windows "hit ENTER to continue?" It sounds like I should just let the whole issue go, and if Users aren't smart enough to figure out what I mean if I say ENTER, they they'd better go back to hand-writing things, right?

[Kurt Knippel]

Well, it is not really a Mac vs Windows issue. It is a keyboard manufacturer issue. I have seen many keyboards with every variation on those two keys, you just need to aware as the developer of what the key actually does, rather than what is printed on it.

[kenneth2k1]

Yes, because on 1 of my Win machines, I have an old Macally keyboard (one of the ones when Apple had to be soooo unique and put the little bumps on the "D" and "K" keys instead of the "F" and "J" keys like the rest of the world and you would start off typing all screwed up) and there is no difference in function.

Ken

[CobaltSky]

Let me try to clarify a couple of things for you.

1. There are two keys which, in some applications, perform a similar function (eg add a carriage return) in both Mac and Windows, and one is on the main 'alpha' keyboard, the other on the 'numeric keypad'.

2. In Macintosh and Windows these keys are named differently. On Mac, the one on the alpha keyboard is always labelled 'Return' and the one on the numeric keypad is labelled 'Enter'. On Windows there are a plethora of variations, but most often both keys are labelled 'Enter'.

3. In FileMaker, these keys have different functions from each other, but their respective operations are the same on both Mac and Windows.

4. Because the keys are labelled the same on Windows keyboards - and have the same effect in a lot of applications - most Windows end-users don't appreciate that there is any difference between them. Moreover it is exceedingly difficult to get them to press the correct one for a given action, since they are labelled the same.

Therin lies the difficulty. It is not a functional difficulty so much as a communication difficulty and - to some extent a perceptual problem (eg the majority of Windows users don't perceive the difference, yet that difference is crucial to some FileMaker actions and operations).

5. A "Find" in FileMaker is activated by pressing either 'Return' or 'Enter' - (make that either of the 'enter' keys if you are on Windows). If it is in 'find mode' at the time, a script can also be continued using either of the two keys.

6. In Browse mode however, a script is may be continued by pressing 'Enter' but not by pressing 'Return'. This also is the same on both Mac and Windows (except that of course, on Windows I'd have to re-phrase that to "a script is may be continued by pressing 'Enter' on the numeric keypad but not by pressing 'Enter' on the alpha keyboard). The reason for this is so that if necessary, users will be able to put carriage returns into fields (eg multi-key fields, or multi-line addresses) while a script is paused.

The differentiation of the functions of the two keys has always been problematic, even with single-platform Mac solutions, because even Mac users are vague about the difference between the two keys, given that their function in many applications is interchangeable (even in FileMaker, it is interchangeable some of the time!). On Windows, the differentiation is hopeless, since there is no succinct way to clearly state which key is which. Even if your dialogs and instructions all say to 'Press the Enter key on the Numeric Keypad' users are apt to boggle and baulk.

Until recently there used to be a plug-in on the market which made the grand claim of being able to solve this problem by allowing temporary re-mapping of the 'Return' key while a script is paused. In fact I presently own a developer licence to it - however I'd have to say that it is so poorly implemented that in most situations it is unusable. I live in daily hope that the function will be included in an upcoming release of one of the mainstream professional standard plug-ins such as DialogMagic (which already has the capability of issuing an 'enter' keystroke to continue a paused script - but not to intercept and substitute an enter for a carriage return, as is required to solve this problem).

In the meantime, the range of options is limited, and placing a button on a layout is often the lesser of evils. As pointed out by others on this forum, to varying degrees techniques involving timed pauses or script-invoking plug-ins - (of which oAzium Events is one, along with other widely supported plug-ins such as Troi Activator from Troi Automatisering and SCRIPTit from CNS) - may work in certain situations.

If I were to start talking about which situations they are and aren't suited to and why, this rather long explanation would be starting to look more like a book chapter than a forum post... ?! :

[LaRetta]

Soooo, I think I'll just put a button there saying "hit this!"

[harryk]

A tip for you for the unwanted Returns in your fields.

With fields intented to have only ONE line:

Select the field in Define Fields

Go to options: Validation

Check the 'validation by calculation option'

As a calculation enter: PatternCount(the_fields_name;"

[LaRetta]

Ahhh, Harry! It's not a hobby -- it's an addiction! I know ... I keep thinking about when Live Oak's going to pull the plug for maintenance and I start getting the shakes!

Thanks for the solution to those nasty carriage returns. One more thing off my list!