newbie, oh how new.... 1000 fields!!

[splodgehodge]

I've created a database but after trying so many different ways to do the same with relational databases have ended up with 1000 fields!!! I know!! So .. what is the maximum amount of fields I can use? and if I do have loads will it consideralbly effect the speed etc of the database?

thanks all.

[bcooney]

Your structure (tables, relationships, fields) is probably wrong. Why not ask us how to do it correctly? Describe your requirements.

[splodgehodge]

Thanks for the offer of help..... Its a big one!!!

So here goes....

Its database for my school. I want to be able to have a list of students, click on a button beside their name and be able to assess a subject, either Maths, English, science or IT.

Not too bad!!

However, I want to be able to click onto a button and colour the skills in those subjects to say they are either working towards a skill, have acquired the skill, or not.

Then, as a teacher I want to be able to choose 3 skills for the child to work towards and print these out onto a sticker to put in their planner!!

Easy!!!

Well, I have got it to work with IT, but now I have to add the other subjects and the masses of fields.

I'm sort of getting my head around it, but maybe because its Friday night, my brain is failing, fast.

I've attached the database with IT that seems to be working.

Thanks,

Jon

Assessment.zip

[Cazito]

For a start and without delving too much into your database, the first thing you should do is substitute the 288 fields of your LEVEL table for only 4:

AF = 1,2 or 3

L1 = N, A or P

? = 1, 2, 3 or 4

? = 1, 2, 3. 4, 5, 6, 7 or 8.

The different combinations between these four fields would account for the 288 possible levels of your db.

[splodgehodge]

Unfortunatley I wanted the database to be laid out so the teacher could view all the AF (assessment focuses) at the same time. They could then write notes about the assessment (N) assess whether they had met the grade (A) or print the specific assessment (P)

thanks

The ICT isn't too bad!! Its the other subjects that are the nightmare, maths having 14 assessment focuses that need to be printed, assessed or have notes written about them for the 8 levels of attainment!!

Any help would be good though.

Thanks again

[bruceR]

Unfortunatley I wanted the database to be laid out so the teacher could view all the AF (assessment focuses) at the same time. They could then write notes about the assessment (N) assess whether they had met the grade (A) or print the specific assessment (P)

OK. But it isn't laid out that way. It's laid out individual tabs. So what do you want?

It remains the case that you need about 4 fields, not 290, and better understanding of relational concepts. You just cannot report on the structure you have set up. This is also a case where the new filtered portal feature of FM11 might provide an advantage. The filter for each portal can control the type of data you want to see.

[bruceR]

Looks like this especially applies. "AF2 - Handling data, sequencing instructions and modelling".

Maybe you could talk to somebody who teaches the course.

[splodgehodge]

Thanks for the replies.

You are right..I know very little about relational databases and yes, I don't need to have them laid out as tabs.

It would be good to see the levels for a particular Assessment focus (AF) on one side but tabs aren't necessary.

So..

What would you advise. Where should I start?

Could I use a drop down menu and be taken to the correct subject and then correct AF?

Any help would be gratefully recieved.

Thanks,

Jon

[bruceR]

Something like this.

APP1-2.fp7.zip

[bruceR]

Thanks for the replies.

You are right..I know very little about relational databases and yes, I don't need to have them laid out as tabs.

It would be good to see the levels for a particular Assessment focus (AF) on one side but tabs aren't necessary.

So..

What would you advise. Where should I start?

Could I use a drop down menu and be taken to the correct subject and then correct AF?

Any help would be gratefully recieved.

Thanks,

Jon

A better description of what you're trying to do would also help.

[splodgehodge]

WOW!!

Thank you so much. I now need to spend sometime working out how you did it!!

Where should I start? where did you start?

The only other problem I had initially was that each student has the same level descriptors. so where you wrote comments all students would have the same skills/comment ( I can turn on the computer etc) This is where I put these level descriptors in the data area in the field.

I would do the same on the database you have created but couldn't find where to write them!!

Thanks again.

Jon

[bruceR]

Regarding same skills comment, I don't understand what you're saying. This goes back to thoroughly describing what you are trying to accomplish.

[splodgehodge]

Sorry, looking at the file I sent you I'm not surprised. It didn't have the additional information needed!!!

Every Assessment focus, AF1, AF2, AF3 is made up of 4 skills. These 4 skills were pre written in the fields data area, so that these can be seen as soon as the user goes to the subject to be assessed. The teacher then just checks to see if the child had achieved the skill, marks it as achieved or not.

Does this make anymore sense?

Thanks,

Jon

[splodgehodge]

This is an older file but shows in Level 3 - 8 what I mean.

Thanks

APP.zip

Edited March 28, 2010 by Guest

[bruceR]

OK. So we're back to explanations; and trying to learn the language of data and relations. In general we talk about entities and attributes and single attributes or 1 to many or many to many.

I don't know what AF-1, AF-2, AF-3 are. Are they separate courses? Major objectives of the same course? It looks like the thing AF1 has four objectives. These are properties of AF1, not of the student record. But for each objective, there is a student assessment; and an option to print the objective title for that assessment.

Maybe something like this is roughly accurate:

There are many courses; and each course may have several levels; and each level has a set of objectives. (Do all levels have four objectives?) When a student takes a course at a particular level, Yes/No/WT is recorded for each objective. (WT = ?). If the print option is selected then the objective name is displayed and can be printed.

[splodgehodge]

Thanks again Bruce.

AF stands for assessment focus and as you stated, major objectives.

There are normally 4 objectives, no more, of these to gain and yes are therefore properties of AF and not the student record.

There are many courses ( Maths, English, Science and ICT These are the only subjects being assessed this way in the UK at present)) and each course has several levels, AF1, AF2, AF3 (Maths has 14 of these!) etc and each level has several objectives, normally 4.

When a student takes a course at a particular level, Yes/No/WT (working towards) is recorded for each objective. If the print button is selected then the objective name is displayed and can be printed ( This is to allow teachers to choose 3 objectives that the student has to work on to gain)

Thanks for making the language clearer, and all your help.

Jon

[splodgehodge]

Hi Bruce,

Thanks for all your help so far.

I have been trying to work my way through your version of the database. Wow and thanks again.

I've attached what I have done, but can you please give me a pointer to show me how to start adding the other subjects.

I have added data into COURSE_GOAL_ASSESSMENT, COURSE GOALS and COURSES.

I'm now trying to add tables and relationships when defining the database. I started with science (SC) and then decided to contact you first!!

Any help would be gratefully recived, I realise this might now be becoming a pain!!

Thanks,

Jon

APP2.zip

[bruceR]

In course goal assessment you have not entered valid goal ID values. For instance goal WG has goal ID 16-23. For each of these records you will need to create N goal assessment records. Currently you have goal ID values 1-8 for WG assessment.

[splodgehodge]

Thanks Bruce,

Those are all working now.

My next problem is how can I put the 4 descriptions into the note sections of each subject.

I looked at the portals but it seems to be pointing to the note area from GOAL_ICT1,2 or 3

Will I need to create new fields,

GOAL_ICT1a,b,c,d

and then have the level descriptors in the data field, like my first attempt?

If so, when adding the other subjects, will I need to make additional tables -

GOAL_SC1, GOAL_SC2, etc

Do I make any sense??

Thanks,

Jon

[bruceR]

No, the whole point of doing this is to NOT make other tables.

Your description of data relations is still incomplete. Where do levels come into the picture?

[splodgehodge]

Yes, of course, I'm slipping into my bad ways!!!

In the attached file level3 to level8, in AF1, AF2 and AF3 there are level descriptions. These 4 areas describe the skills necessary to achieve the Assessment Focus (AF), hence the Yes, No or WT (working towards)

I think this was why I went down the multiple fields route the first time, oh, and the fact I had no idea how relationships work!!!

Jon

APP.zip

[splodgehodge]

I'm almost there!! Thanks so much for your help Bruce.

I now have all the subjects that show all assessment focus (AF)

I would like, please, to be able to have the assessment focus (AF) descriptions in the notes area, rather than being able to type a note, it needs to have the skills( I can turn on the computer, I can do relationships, etc) There are 4 of these per Assessment focus (AF)

Again, any push in the right direction would help please.

Thanks,

Jon

APP2.zip

Edited March 30, 2010 by Guest

[bruceR]

Stop.

Please describe what you are trying to do.

Describe it in data terminology. You're just throwing things on the graph.

For instance, it is not clear why the NOTE field is currently a student property and not a goal property. From what I understand, NOTE should not change when you switch between student records.

[splodgehodge]

Sorry, I'm getting carried away here now that things are beginning to work without having the 1000 field issues!

I'll try to describe in data terminology as clearly as possible.

There are 4 courses (Maths, English, Science and ICT; and each course has 8 levels; and each level has a set of 4 objectives.

When a student takes a course at a particular level, Yes/No/WT is recorded for each objective. If the print option is selected then the content of the NOTE field (Objective) can be printed.

The NOTE fields are the same for all the students. All students need to be assessed on the same skills, the difference between students will be in the form of the colour of that NOTE field (Objective), Red for not achieved (No), Yellow for Working towards (WT) and Green for achieved (Yes).

At a glance a teacher will be able to see from the colours how well the student is doing, and choose a few objectives that can be printed on a label for the student to work towards.

In my first database, I created, wrongly, a field for each objective, with the objective details written in the data area of the field ([color:blue]Plan how you will use ICT to complete a task, Explain whether you think your idea has worked well or not etc these are two of the objectives for the student to achieve level 1)

That way, the objectives automatically showed in the fields and were the same for all users.

The way the database is working now is perfect. I just need to have these pre written objectives put into the NOTE field for the the subjects.

Is my next step to have all the objectives listed in a table, referenced by the subject, assessment focus and level?

Sorry, I'm sure you wish you had left this by now!

Thanks again,

Jon

[bruceR]

Sort of. But you're doing quite well at responding to requests for information, you're now almost a poster child for how to participate very helpfully in your request for help and information. That makes SO much difference!

Yes, the objectives are part of the class data hierarchy rather than student data. The bazillion relations thing kinda worked for small numbers of goal sets but it is a bit out of hand now and I think a different interface might be helpful.

This seems like it might be a good candidate for FM11 filtered portals, any chance you can move to 11?

[bruceR]

Where does the 14 come in then? 14 of what?

Your hierarchy description is still incomplete.

Is this correct?

Each course has many levels.

Each level has many goals.

Each goal has four objectives.

Edited March 31, 2010 by Guest

[splodgehodge]

FM11!!

I've just downloaded the trial version. So would upgrade if it made life easier!

The 14 comes from the fact that Maths has 14 Assessment Focuses (Goals) so...

The COURSE Maths has 8 levels - level 1 for 6 yr old kids through to level 8 for 14 yr olds.

Each level has many goals - Maths has 14, science 5, ICT 3, English is split into writing 8, reading 7 and Speaking and listening 4

Each of these goals has a maximum of 4 objectives. These objectives are the same for every child.

The teacher will assess these objectives by clicking onto Yes,No or WT(Working Towards) for the visual effect of how the child is achieving.

Normally 3 objectives are chosen that can be printed onto a label for a child to concentrate on until they are assessed again.

Thanks Bruce,

Jon

[bruceR]

Try this. Requires FM11.

APP2.fp7.zip

Edited March 31, 2010 by Guest

[splodgehodge]

This is amazing!!! and it LOOKS much easier to get my head around.

Thanks Bruce.

One last thing then.

I realise that I'm so dependent on you and others. Where should I start to try getting my head around FM?

I've looked for a dummies guide to FM11 (none available as yet), but are there any other recommendations?

Thanks again.

Jon

[splodgehodge]

Thanks again Bruce,

Please find attached the file.

Jon

APPFM11.zip

[bruceR]

Updated.

APPFM11.fp7.zip