Line length vs rectangle length

[awitbeck]

Using v11, in a new layout I create a rectangle that's 300 px wide and a line of the same length. Zooming in reveals that the line is one 'pixel' longer than the rectangle. In Browse Mode "adjusting to fit" the window results in the line extending past the rectangle leaving the background color showing next to the rectangle. Shorten the line to 299 and they look almost the same, but "adjusting to fit" still shows the background color to the right of the rectangle.The line must be shortened to 298 px for correct rendering.

I noticed similar behavior in v10 when converting my pre-7 files, so I made all the lines one pixel short as a fix.

Now, to eliminate the lovely 'scroll bar' at the bottom of the window, I must visit every layout in every db and shorten the lines by another pixel! Why do lines have to be two pixels shorter than a rectangle?!

Happens on both a G5/10.5 and Core2Duo iMac/10.6, not tested on a PC...

[LaRetta]

I observed this behavior several years ago and came to believe it was because of the width of the rectangle line but now I'm not so sure. Thank you for bringing it up and I'm sorry you have to adjust your lines!!

The attached (newly created) file shows several rectangles overlaid with lines. They all [color:green](the rectangles) are locked at left position 150 and go up in line width from hairline to 6 px. And they all say, [color:green]both rectangles and lines (according to Object Info) that they are 300 px long. But that is where the consistency ends. When viewing the layout, it becomes obvious that the rectangle and lines are different by as much as 8 px. Object info maintains the same length of line but start and end locations increase. Illogical.

This test was ran in Windows on vs. 9.0v3 because 10 and 11 are not on this box. But I verified the results back through vs. 7. I am curious how it effects vs. 10 and 11 and also on Macs.

Again, selecting every object, they all say they are 300 px long and start at 150 from left. I have looked for a pattern in incrementing (see the 'over by 8' blue field) but can't see a pattern. I understand that, when there is an object which is 25 px wide and another object at 24 px wide, how does FM decide how to center them?

Internally, are there measurements smaller than px? Even if so, the 'Over by' and 'Under by' aren't following a logical pattern and neither are the increment increases. Either Object info isn't providing correct results, the Alignment tool is off, or our eyes are really deceiving us.

I would appreciate any theories and/or other OS/version results for comparison.

[color:brown]UPDATE: File removed ... please see pdf below.

Edited April 26, 2010 by Guest
Removed file

[LaRetta]

I realize that, if the line width of the rectangle is 6, and if the line left-aligns inside the rectangle (not counting the rectangle's line) then it would skew. But for 6 pt, it skews by 8 px! There is more too it than that, I think because it still doesn't match any principle I can see. And how can centering make the line display outside of the rectangle on both sides?

Take the 6 px rectangle and change the line width to hairline. Then align them. The line still overflows the rectangle (on both sides if centered - 4 px on each side) and if left-aligned, 8 px. on over on the right.

Edited April 26, 2010 by Guest

[bruceR]

If you want precise size don't use lines; use rectangles. That has always been the case. Set rectangle line width to 0 and rectangle height to desired line width, fill to desired line color. Standard Filemaker practice for eternity.

rectangles.fp7.zip

Edited April 26, 2010 by Guest

[LaRetta]

ciderndonuts, I have pinned down the break between versions. The Object Info palette in versions prior to 11 would reflect incorrect readings for lines.

So if you created a 990 px line, you were actually creating a 989 line. So when you upgraded to version 11, the line ACTUALLY is one px longer. Many people found the above FM file confusing and I also had a few things wrong in it so I have removed that file and instead posted a proper bug report to the FileMaker forum (which includes illustrations).

So, although there is a difference between versions (and it broke in prior and is fixed in 11), there are still issues in vs. 11 with lines. I have replicated your issue with Resize To Fit and have included those examples in the PDF referenced on the bug forum (and also attached here). I believe the issues are much clearer.

Here is the bug report if others want to track it: Link

rectangles.pdf

Edited April 26, 2010 by Guest

[LaRetta]

Hi Bruce, Standard Filemaker practice for eternity? Get real.

It is true that I use rectangles more than lines but one should not be able to use lines just because they break!! Simply, it is time we get it fixed so people can use them.

I have been using FM since 2002 (which isn't eternity but quite a long time) and I study the forums and I have never seen this brought up before.

And the behavior HAS changed between versions 10 and 11 and that is important to note. Someone should not have to remove lines throughout their system because FM can't handle them properly.

Edited April 26, 2010 by Guest

[bruceR]

I am real. Look at way old Matt Petrowsky tips and movies for instance; and previous discussion here and other places. Yes, this is standard practice. I've been using FM at least a decade longer.

Edited April 26, 2010 by Guest

[LaRetta]

Standard Filemaker practice for eternity?

Read what you said please and then get real. Not everyone in the universe knew this information. It is NOT in FM Help. It is NOT on Knowledge Base. Why can't people use lines?

Just because you may have been using FM longer than I have (or the person posting) doesn't give you rights to be rude. Standard FileMaker practice for eternity my butt!! It is broken and should be pointed out. Show me one thread here which points to it ... show me one thread on the FileMaker bugs list. Surprisingly, you aren't the word's authority on FileMaker.

Edited April 26, 2010 by Guest

[bruceR]

Not gonna try to look it up now. Threw away my Scriptology books. It's been discussed many times and maybe at some point I'll try to find instances. Sorry you feel that way. I wouldn't count on a behavior change. Like many FileMaker things - you can choose to feel how you want about the subject but rectangles are what works.

[LaRetta]

My purpose responding here was to replicate ciderndonuts' issue, attempt to resolve it, or confirm the bug. I did just that.

You can imply that everyone should just KNOW lines are worthless (and that anyone who doesn't know, doesn't know squat) but I don't agree. If lines are worthless, FileMaker should remove them as an option.

I have reported this as a bug - both the difference between lines and rectangles AND the behavior difference between prior versions and vs. 11 (break in the Object Info addition).

Lines were created to use. To imply otherwise is ignoring reality.

[awitbeck]

Wow, didn't mean to start something here.

Thanks for the advice on using rectangles in place of lines, I might have eventually come to that conclusion but probably not after more hair-pulling. I'm not one to wait around for bug fixes.

BTW, I fired up v4.1 on my old Performa, checked a file and the rectangles and lines render correctly. I'm not crazy yet...

Edited April 26, 2010 by Guest

[bruceR]

Sorry you're reading so much into my statements. I intend no such implication. But this has in fact been a known behavior for the entire history of FileMaker. I'd like to see the FM4 files. See FileMaker 6 file and screen shot attached. All objects indicate 200px long in object info.

Lines.fp5_2.zip

Edited April 26, 2010 by Guest

[awitbeck]

Thanks for your efforts! Maybe, someday, we'll see the change. Onward and upward...

[awitbeck]

I was referring to one pixel lines and rectangles only.

Due to the very obvious issue in your graphic, I've always stayed away from >1 widths.

Thanks again.

[LaRetta]

C'mon Bruce ...

I'm sorry that you are so defensive just because I want more lowly-than-you customers (everyone else in the universe but you) to aware of it. I consider it a bug and I don't buy into the hype that, just because some old-time developers know about it in vs. 4, that we all should have somehow absorbed that information from thin air.

Just because something has been around longer than dirt doesn't mean that it is correct, right, wanted, or known behavior. And it does NOT mean it is 'Standard Filemaker practice for eternity' because that implies everyone (or most) know about it and that it has been ACCEPTED as okay and it is not. It is a bug which needs to be fixed. Period.

And I would bet you didn't know that Object Info (Inspector) changed its behavior between vs. 10 and 11.

So are you done? :wink2:

[LaRetta]

By the way, Bruce, if lines are so terrible, why was Ray Cologon using them in his headers to create 'rounded' lines in most of his fp5 demos, such as: ClickTips.

And how can a rectangle, resize and rotate to all directions? Lines are there to be used.

[bruceR]

But that's not the question is it?

The QUESTION is about having lines and rectangles size and resize properly independent of line widths; and that doesn't work unless you use rectangles. For lots and lots of applications, lines are fine; it is where you need precision, and matching behavior when objects are stretched or given different "line widths" that you need to use rects. There is no problem with rotating rectangles.

Your tone is not appreciated and is quite unnecessary.

Edited April 27, 2010 by Guest

[LaRetta]

My 'tone' is fine. The QUESTION was why lines changed. I provided an answer. You hijack this tread to tell everyone that this broken behavior was there for eternity and everyone knew about it. You say nobody uses lines but I point out that some do. My 'tone' is simple disagreement.

I suggest we let this thread return to the topic - did lines change between vs. 10 and vs. 11 and the answer is yes - as indicated by Object Info. And that lines are broken and have been forever (as I said). It is a bug. Simple.

Edited April 27, 2010 by Guest

[tyt3]

Thanks for the post, now I know not to use a line, even when I want a line.

This seems kind of counter-intuitive to me, and in my opinion FileMaker should fix the issue. Shouldn't a work-a-round be a temporary solution while the software vendor fixes the issue? Bruce saying this has been the case since version 4 more or less tells me FileMaker hasn't fixed their software since 1997; that's concerning. In my opinion, we should collectively be demanding FileMaker fix their know issues instead of relying on a experience or a knowledge base of work-a-rounds to get things done correctly. Ex. the import mapping bug LaRetta has pointed out repeatedly.

[Kris M]

Cardinal Rule of lean/continuous improvement is never accept "We have always done it that way".

Just my two cents...

[bruceR]

Cardinal Rule of lean/continuous improvement is never accept "We have always done it that way".

Just my two cents...

Having spent 15 years in manufacturing support, a very important corollary rule is to always understand WHY it is done the current way. There may be critical details that are not obvious but you don't want to break a process by "improving" it.

How many layouts will introduce gaps when line definitions are changed?

[LaRetta]

How many layouts will introduce gaps when line definitions are changed?

I understand your point. But how many people are now having to change their layouts because Object Info was fixed? Broken doesn't mean something should always remain broken. At some point, it needs to be fixed. We adjust to changes in behavior and improvements in process all the time ... gosh, look at Status Toolbar!

Wouldn't it be nice to actually use lines and depend upon them working properly? Change is usually for the good. Telling people about the Object Info change and that lines are broken ... and asking that FMI fix lines is not an abhorant request. :wink2:

[bruceR]

Which is broken?

Schraeder valve stems or Presta valve stems?

Pickups or passenger cars?

There are legitimate design choices about how to define lines and end points.

Ever looked at any other graphics applications?

Ever looked at ANY other graphics applications?

How about the premiere Mac diagramming app Omnigraffle?

Care to guess how it deals with line start/end points and pen width? Oops.

Left end of all horizontal lines is 90px. Length of all lines 300px.

Edited April 27, 2010 by Guest

[bruceR]

Thanks for the post, now I know not to use a line, even when I want a line.

This seems kind of counter-intuitive to me, and in my opinion FileMaker should fix the issue. Shouldn't a work-a-round be a temporary solution while the software vendor fixes the issue? Bruce saying this has been the case since version 4 more or less tells me FileMaker hasn't fixed their software since 1997; that's concerning. In my opinion, we should collectively be demanding FileMaker fix their know issues instead of relying on a experience or a knowledge base of work-a-rounds to get things done correctly. Ex. the import mapping bug LaRetta has pointed out repeatedly.

A common meme in criticizing any app (or anything really) is gee how stupid is the existing design boy they should do it my way.

But there's nothing to "fix" and nothing is broken. It's a legitimate and common design decision that is obvious the second you define a line, look at the handles, and change the pen width. You can complain that FileMaker doesn't do SQL or doesn't have free form text script editing or any number of other things. You can ask for those things and maybe we'll get them some day. Meanwhile the existing approach is functioning and is clear and understandable. Sometimes adapting to reality and getting things accomplished is important.

[LaRetta]

I realize that you think you're the only one that knows anything but surprisingly, I've used Omnigraffle and also have a Mac and I realize other programs handle lines a bit differently and I've seen handles and line-ends when zoomed in that are zig-zag in fact but ...

Even FileMaker acknowledged it is a bug and described it as a 'problem'. However, you will ride this into the dirt self-justifying your point of view. I won't. You win ... you are always right. I bow to your magnificence.

I see that you couldn't even acknowledge the addition bug in prior version's Object Info as compared to vs. 11. Not surprising.

[bruceR]

Really: STOP the insults and personal attacks and assumptions please.

I like to thing things through in detail and I ask challenging questions and I like to think that it is possible that the people who designed FileMaker knew what they're doing. I think, they probably had a good reason for this - and maybe it's not obvious - what might that reason be? But I do not blindly accept that they do everything right or to our preference.

Acknowledged what exactly as a bug?

They fixed object info; good. Was somebody waiting for my approval? Is object info the issue?

How does the thought experiment work out if they actually making this change? Line objects are now redefined. End points on every line object on every layout on every file ever opened in 11.02 are now moved because they are pen-width dependent. Just going to a layout updates all its line data. Are layouts not visited updated? What happens if I open this file in 10.0 or 11.01? Will it be worth the trouble? Maybe it is simpler and more seamless than it appears to me. I could be wrong! What - fairly exactly - would the difference be? Desired behavior would be ..? Expected conversion process would be ..? But right now that isn't apparent.

[LaRetta]

You seem incapable of responding descently to someone. You started with the rude, condescending remarks to the person posting and myself. And now you claim I'm attacking you because I disagree and give your condescending attitude right back. HA HAHHHH! This is so funny ... BruceR ... the most insulting person on ALL forums .

Now listen to a bit of logic:

I want consistency. If the rounded ends of lines aren't taken into account in Object Info then left justify and right justify and Resize to Fit should ignore the ends as well.

I cannot comment on the behaviors back in vs. 4 nor do I want to. I tested thoroughly from vs. 7 - 11 on Windows. Do what you will ... you will anyway. But please quit belittling others who attempt to speak up.

UPDATE: You see to conveniently forget that this thread was started by someone because they set their line to a number which FMI changed in the current version. You seen to forget that the person posting then couldn't get Resize To Fit to ignore that handle. You are so focused on your POV that you are blind.

Edited April 27, 2010 by Guest

[bruceR]

Thanks for the post, now I know not to use a line, even when I want a line.

If that's what you learned then I suggest you think with a little more precision; which is generally the case in database work. Nobody has said any such thing.

Like so many things in Filemaker, there are times to use specific features; calc fields, scripts, auto-enter calcs, lookups. They have different characteristics and their use is valid in some cases, OK but not-so-great in other cases, and just doesn't work in still other cases.

There are limitations to how lines perform. If you want to group a rectangle and some lines, for instance, and then stretch it, you're going to experience problems. In other cases it doesn't matter. If you want a diagonal line you need a diagonal line.

If you want a simple free standing horizontal or vertical line, use one.

It's like anything here - learn the details of how the tool operates. Observe. You don't use screws and nails interchangeably. It is not a sin that a screw is different from a nail.

[LaRetta]

I see that you're ranting on again at the other poor person who had the guts to question. They haven't even responded since your last post but you picked and picked and found another thing to jump on them for.

Calm down, the veins in your neck are showing.

[bruceR]

I've provided straightforward guidance to get the desired result with the product as it exists. You've provided insults. We're each doing what we think is important.

[LaRetta]

If that's what you learned then I suggest you think with a little more precision; which is generally the case in database work. Nobody has said any such thing.

Yep, you're nice. The person hasn't said a thing wrong and you nail them anyway.

You think you're doing what is right and I agree that currently we should use rectangles. But our agreement stops there. You throwing insults because I helped the person and disagree with you is unnecessary and unbecoming.

Lines should be fixed. They are NOT consistent throughout other software programs; it is YOU who obviously have limited knowledge in this regard. It is not correct behavior for Object Info to indicate that a line starts at 300 when the Alignment tools and windowing sees it in another. We can go back and forth all day; in fact I think we have.

If you want to throw anger, throw it at me. I'm used to you on all of these forums and know how you behave. But do NOT throw that behavior at someone posting a question nor at someone simply responding that they don't agree with you.

And now I AM done because ... climb into a hole with a pig, become a pig. I won't wallow down with you any more. I have better things to do.