Purchasing FM Pro 7 on eBay?

[weldon]

I'm currently on FM Pro 6 (full version) on Mac OS X and I'd like to upgrade to v7. I can either upgrade for $150 or buy the academic version for $150. But then I checked on eBay and saw some auctions where I can buy FM Pro 7 for $50 or less. They *say* that they guarantee authentic, unlicensed, never used, full version software. Still, I thought I would check here and see if anyone had any experience purchasing such software on eBay. Here's a link to one auction as an example...

http://cgi1.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dl...;partner=888801

Any thoughts?

[Sxeptomaniac]

I bought an academic version of Dev 7 on ebay, which turned out well, but I can't vouch for that one. Seems legitimate at first glance. If you use paypal, you should be covered in case of fraud. Just make sure you get it registered with Filemaker right away to make sure the number is legitimate, like they say.

[stanley]

I've sold unused copies of FMP on eBay in the past - when a customer overpurchases, for example - so there surely are real copies of FMP out there. However, the link you're looking at sounds a bit odd, in that it is just the disc - not even a box. I've never heard of a retail version like that.

Nevertheless, it sounds legit. I'd be interested to see a post here regarding what you get, should you actually go down this route.

-Stanley

[Jarvis]

At the top of this screen I see a popup ad that lists FM 7 for $109.99.

This seems way less than I paid for my copy.

Is this a legitimate company to buy from?

[stanley]

Now that I've had a good look on eBay (and at the source of that ad at the top of the window, too, and other places) I see that it seems to be very common practice to sell FMP as a disk-only item. No box, no manuals, just the disk and the serial number. I hadn't been aware of this before.

-Stanley

[Chris Baumbach]

I received a copy of FMP7 as a gift recently. The giver noted that he found it online (Extreme Mac) for "much less" than the retail price and picked it up. It came without any packaging except for the paper CD sleeve with a laser printed serial number sticker on the back. The CD looked professionally authored (no CD-R tint or detectable edge-of-data boundary), the frontside printing looked entirely professional and legitimate, and "Modus Media" was etched into the hub area -- nothing about the appearance of the CD would raise suspicion. Interestingly, this CD was dual-platform. I don't believe you can buy such a thing directly from FM.

Sooooooo,

Foolheartedly, perhaps, I just bought a copy of FM Dev 7 on eBay for little over $300. It arrived today in similary style -- CD's in paper sleeves (Dev, Server 7, Server 7 Adv) but with inkjet printed serial number stickers. All three CD's were shrinkwrapped together with no other packaging. However, these CD's look like CD-R's with a nice but not quite as professional 4-color image on the front (the tiny text is 4-color, not spot black, the priting covered the hub area, no "Modus Media" or other manufacturer's marks, and the fonts are obviously different than the "real" FM disc). I'm suspicous that this disc did not originate at an approved FM manufacturer, but I could be wrong.

I've registered both copies online with Filemaker. I seemed to get through the web registration process but have yet to receive any kind of email confirmation.

I'll let you know what, if anything happens.

Chris

<waiting for the knock at the door>

[stanley]

Chris:

I agree that your second purchase sounds a bit dodgy. However, your point regarding the first one being dual-platform is misinformed. FMP discs are always dual-platform (even when the box indicates only one platform.) I discovered this when we bought a "windows" version of FMP 5.5 a few years back just to do a demo for one day on a PC, then got the discs mixed up, only to discover that the mac discs and PC discs were in fact all the same thing.

I think I'm going to email FMI and see what the story is with these discs - if there's anything one should watch out for.

-Stanley

[Chris Baumbach]

Stanley,

I did not know that - thanks!

I wonder if the serial number that ships with the Windows version only works on Windows, or if all serial numbers work on both platforms.

I'd be interested to know what FMI says about the discs.

Thanks

Chris

[stanley]

I've sent them an email - if I get a response of any interest, I'll post it here.

-Stanley

[Sxeptomaniac]

I wonder of these people are purchasing volume licensing, then making copies of a disc and printing one of the serial numbers on each. If so, I wonder if Filemaker will recognize that as a legitimate practice.

If you have the startup money, it would be a quick way to make some cash on ebay on a lot of major software.

[stanley]

FMI's legal department is looking into this for me. I'll post the results when I get them.

-Stanley

[Chris Baumbach]

I called FMI. The serial number that I received with Developer 7 was registered to 7 other people.

I'm not surprised.

I've offered to give FMI all the info I have, and I'll pursue a refund with the seller, more likely ending up pursuing some kind of recovery via PayPal.

In the end, it's my responsibility. First real problem with eBay in six years, though.

FWIW, Newegg has Developer 7 for $417.99 shipped.

I'm still curious what they say about the FMP 7 discs. The one I received looked entirely legitimate and there are "real" online retailers selling them. I neglected to ask about that when I was on the phone, though.

Chris

[stanley]

Chris:

Thanks for the info regarding FMI's resonse about the FMD7 disc. That's the one that looked legit? I thought that was the one with the inkjet printing. What about the other FMP copy you got - I think you said it was a gift - did you ask about them about that one?

BTW, I'm still waiting to hear back from FMI's legal dept.

-Stanley

[Chris Baumbach]

Sorry about the confusion.

I called FMI about my copy of Developer 7 which looked very questionable (and indeed was). The FMP disc I received as a gift looks legitimate, but I forgot to mention it during my conversation with FMI.

I'm expecting a call back from Filemaker Legal. I will try to remember to ask them about it as well.

chris

[Elwood Blues]

I've also been curious about the legalities of purchasing FM7 on eBay. I sent FM an email and got this response:

[color:"blue"]

"Thank you for contacting FileMaker, Inc. Customer Assistance.

FileMaker, Inc. has been pursuing some of the individuals that are selling our products on eBay as they are not authorized to resell from FileMaker, Inc..

Additionally, we have had many customers contact us when seeing software pricing that seems to good to be true and it has been.

A licensed copy of our Software will contain the following:

User guide, technical support access code and phone number, an installation CD with the license key. Also our products are returnable within 30 days, even if the software package is opened, which many of these individuals are not offering.

We do realize that small businesses have strict budgets that they work within, but do not encourage any purchases via Ebay of our software.

Once again, thank you for contacting FileMaker, Inc."

I also sent an eBay seller this message, to which I received no response yet:

[color:"blue"]

"Hello. I saw your auction for FileMaker 7, and I have a few questions. First, are you an authorized FileMaker dealer? Second, since you guarantee authenticity, what actions would you/I need to take on the off chance that your product is not authentic? I look forward to your reply."

I think that aside from questioning the authenticity of the software, we also need to consider whether or not the people we buy from are authorized to sell FM products to us. I'll let you know if I hear back from the eBay seller, but I doubt I will.

[stanley]

The saga continues. And I still haven't heard back from FMI's legal department on this topic, despite more emailing on my part.

-Stanley

[Elwood Blues]

The saga does indeed continue, as the eBay seller did in fact respond to my question:

[color:"blue"]

All our software is identical to the retail version, just without the box and manual.

[stanley]

That seems to be contradictory to what FMI said a copy of FMP should be. That is, no user manual. My advice to anyone buying on eBay is to try to find a boxed version, preferably unopened. All the same, I have sold unwanted (opened, but not used) copies of FMP on eBay in the past.

-Stanley

[Ender]

These unboxed versions could be NFR copies, like FileMaker gives out at DevCon. A shrink-wrapped disk with a license code. I don't know if these were supposed to be resold.

[MnR]

The Uk ebay seems to have the same problem,

web page

I am guessing these aren't legal judging by the price...

[Ano Nimus]

These unboxed versions could be NFR copies, like FileMaker gives out at DevCon. A shrink-wrapped disk with a license code. I don't know if these were supposed to be resold.

Seeing as NFR means 'not for resale' I wager they weren't supposed to be resold

[the Otter]

I got my FMP7 on eBay, exactly like that. No box, no manual, but an original, legitimate disc. The serial number worked just fine; I think I even took advantage of the one free tech support call. Whatever the case, I haven

[stanley]

No box, no manual, but an original, legitimate disc.

I've got to say, I think you're very lucky there.

-Stanley

[Oldfogey]

Are you people really that naive? The single disks you are describing are clearly not legitimate but (probably) copies of legitimate disks.

[stanley]

Paul:

There's been some talk between users and FMI about this, and FMI's position is that (as you suggest) if it doesn't have a manual, registration card, etc. with it, it's not legitimate. Ergo, my advice that if it isn't in a box, you're on your own. If Otter is right in saying the disc is legitimate (which I'll accept, even though I don't know him, and it all sounds wrong, because I trust people to think things through) then at the very least he's gotten a real FMP disc. Of course, the disc has probably already been registered...

I stick by what I said earlier. If it isn't in a box, etc., don't trust it. The only way to be sure that you're getting a real licensable version of FMP is to get a sealed box.

It's nice to get things for less, but FMP developers depend on FMI, and should never enable piracy of FileMaker, no matter how innocuous it seems. And I do not mean to say that anyone involved in this thread has done anything purposely wrong. However, I agree with Paul that there is a certain voluntary naivete regarding buying software on eBay (and other places) at absurdly low prices. I mean, really, sixty-five dollars? Even the best bulk purchase model of FMP doesn't support that price. If it was someone who bought (or was given) the wrong software, and they sold it on, okay, but just a disc? No way.

Sorry. End of rant.

-Stanley

[Elwood Blues]

check this website out, it was in a FileMaker newsletter.

http://www.filemaker.com/company/legal/notice/software_piracy.html

At least we know where FileMaker stands on the situation.

[BrentHedden]

I received an email recently from FSA concerning this matter. This link explains it all - http://www.filemaker.com/company/legal/notice/software_piracy.html

Basically, FileMaker does NOT sell OEM. If you purchase a single copy of Filemaker, it's supposed to come in a box (shrinkwrapped), with all those thick manuals that we love to read through, and a bunch of other paperwork.

If "they" purchase a volume/multi license thing, then "they" cannot break it up into individual sales.

[Lee Smith]

[stanley]

At last, some clarification from FMI on this matter. This is important to read for any developer.

-Stanley

[dbguy]

Guys - how do you expect to buy a $299 producy LEGITIMATELY for less than $200??

Is so obvious - why would FMI ever, ever sell a product for less than that? Anyone on eBay who is selling way below street price (i.e. the price REAL resellers are selling ti for) is counterfeit.

FMI recently emailed FSA members saying they do not sell ANY product without a box - if it has no box/manual/reg card then IT IS COUNTERFEIT!

WAKE UP GUYS - YOUVE BOUGHT COUNTERFEIT SOFTWARE!

Just because a reseller says "genuine" doesn't mean it is. It has been estimated that 90% of all software on eBay is counterfeit - not surprising, given that anyone can sell on there without any recourse.

If the price looks too good to be true, then it probably is!

How do I know all this? Becuase I was suckered myself on eBay - bought a load of FMP and then found out that thousands of others had also registered woith the same key. Then, no support from FMI, no upgrade path and noone to complain to (the eBayer changed hi ID once I complained).

Be very careful.

[Sxeptomaniac]

It has been estimated that 90% of all software on eBay is counterfeit - not surprising, given that anyone can sell on there without any recourse.

Two comments here:

1) Don't forget that the estimate is just that. It's an arbitrary number someone came up with based on personal experience, but not necessarily based on any actual facts.

2) There is recourse for buyers. Ebay has a list of things you can do to limit your risk, as well as what to do in case of fraud. You should follow those closely when buying expensive items.

Found the link to Ebay's information on that recourse: http://pages.ebay.com/securitycenter/buying_paying.html

[dbguy]

I wouldn't call that real recourse. Being able to track someone down and visit them/telephone them/sue them is true recourse. All eBay will do is shut them down - then they just appear under a different ID. In the meantime I am left with counterfeit software and they have 'disappeared'.

Anyway, that's just a side issue - the main point is if software is available for anything less than, say, 50% off (which is a very highly discounted distribution buy price) then it is 99% sure to be counterfeit/copied/stolen.

[Sxeptomaniac]

I wouldn't call that real recourse. Being able to track someone down and visit them/telephone them/sue them is true recourse. All eBay will do is shut them down - then they just appear under a different ID. In the meantime I am left with counterfeit software and they have 'disappeared'.

Anyway, that's just a side issue - the main point is if software is available for anything less than, say, 50% off (which is a very highly discounted distribution buy price) then it is 99% sure to be counterfeit/copied/stolen.

"If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is." I'm just pointing out that anyone considering a purchase on EBay should make sure they know how to cover themselves against fraud, no matter how legitimate it looks, rather than making a decision based on blanket statements.

I call real recourse a process for getting my item as promised or my money back. If one of those happens, then why worry about tracking down the person and suing them? If you go about it right, Ebay will not only shut them down, but they (or the company you payed with) will also refund your money. Let them worry about the suing part, since they have more resources, anyway.

I've been the victim of fraud, too, and the process does work.