[maybe OT] filemaker 8 bugs

[AnFrusch@pepp]

Hello all,

I would like to know if there's some site (even the official filemaker web site) where I can find a list of current known bugs.

could you help me or give me informations?

thank you!

PS: IMHO it would be very useful to create a forum or open a permanent thread about known bugs.

thank you very much in advance!

:)

[Vaughan]

No. None exists, at least not officially from FMI.

The problem with "bugs" is that most of them are user error or an expected behaviour that the user does not understand (eg, global fields in multi-user mode losing values between sessions).

Very often the "real" bugs never get picked up in these forums, and only emerge in developer-level discussions (eg, FMP 8.0v2 finds on unstored fields).

So yeah a bugs forum sounds a great idea but inevitably they end up with a low signal to noise ratio.

[AnFrusch@pepp]

No. None exists, at least not officially from FMI.

The problem with "bugs" is that most of them are user error or an expected behaviour that the user does not understand (eg, global fields in multi-user mode losing values between sessions).

Very often the "real" bugs never get picked up in these forums, and only emerge in developer-level discussions (eg, FMP 8.0v2 finds on unstored fields).

So yeah a bugs forum sounds a great idea but inevitably they end up with a low signal to noise ratio.

With 'bugs' I mean real unexpected or wrong behaviours of the software.. since we update to filemaker 8 from filemaker 7 all the layout that we used to print are properly displayed in prewiev mode, but once I print one of them the margins looks very different (once these layouts was working good -FM 7-) shifted to the right, or the footer appear even in a 'Title header section'..

I don't think this thing has something to do with a 'programming mistake'..

A bug list should be very useful to avoid some kind of.. frustration for a poor filemaker developer :)

[Ted S]

This sounds like a good idea to me. Not an endless discussion of true or perceived bugs but an honest-to goodness list of known bugs and any workarounds.

[Brian C]

What you are reporting here seems like a bug I saw listed on the FMI website in the knowledgebase...

http://filemaker.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/filemaker.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=5907

[LaRetta]

I've also experienced the shift-to-the-right on ALL reports (8.0v2) and it makes no difference which printer is being used. Some reports are unreadable and I've had to change them - can't wait for a fix ... I hope one is coming soon. But at least it gives me job security and I'm never bored. :wink2:

[Ted S]

That is not a comprehensive list. I doubt that FMI would be eager to publish a list of their product's shortcomings. I certainly wouldn't want my personal wall-of-shame exposed to the public.

I would think that this would be a list put together and maintained by members of the Filemaker community of developers.

[Vaughan]

Publishing an official comprehensive list of bugs would advantage nobody but your competition.

[LaRetta]

In this instance I disagree, Vaughan. It is called taking responsibility for one's actions and FileMaker needs to do that as well. If they don't want their mistakes posted, they need to make less and provide fixes more quickly. If it is advantageous to the competition that is because it SHOULD be and FM needs to know they will lose business if they don't put in their OWN overtime to make things right.

There are thousands of Developers out here, wasting thousands of hours DISCOVERING bugs that FM knows about but simply didn't make 'publically' known. And even those bugs we know about - we're having to re-design around just to keep our Receivables functioning (as with the regression calc break). These mistakes hurt a lot of people and businesses who put their trust in FM.

I love FileMaker, but that doesn't let them off the hook. They have 4 bugs listed in 8.0v2. Hogwash.

L

Edited April 4, 2006 by Guest
Removed exploding Pintos part ...

[LaRetta]

I came on a bit too strong here.

I've been scrambling to keep us running - our accounting quit functioning correctly on critical scripted Finds (improper calc eval problem); our popups all crashed (scripted menus); graphics moved around (in status area, headers and footers); many reports had to be changed (printing partial off page); our buttons all right-aligned and look terrible ... etc.

I had succumbed to the allure of 8 but I didn't have the physical resources left to handle the problems that might arise. And we got the whole load of 'em. My fault, not FileMakers - for trusting and jumping into 8 quickly. But searching through their Tech Info is difficult - only to find NOTHING relating to my problems. FileMaker says 8.0v3 will be out SOON. How ducky. I'm scrambling to change my design with NO IDEA how soon 'soon' is to FileMaker. And many of my fixes will have to be changed AGAIN when the Updater is out. The least they can do is TELL US WHEN the Updater will be out. The least they can do is provide a comprehensive list in ONE LOCATION of all problems reported and verified. There still is no mention of the several problems I've pointed out - nothing!! So how many other people are wasting countless hours on these bugs because they haven't researched and found the proper answers yet? I jumped between versions attempting to find the one with the LEAST problems - problems that I could design around. FileMaker says to consider the 'issues' in each version to decide which is right. Thanks, FileMaker. They didn't even mention the regression issue until it was placed in front of their faces.

If FileMaker won't do it - we should. But FileMaker should. They should hold up their problems for us to see to HELP US. And you can bet that, if they have to publically produce a list of their mistakes, there will be far less in the next version. If I were FileMaker, I would make that Developer's tab START with: "Here are potential problems you may experience. We tell you because we know NOT knowing will hurt you and your business. And we are accountable."

And now I'm off to work - I have 5 reports due today which have to be redesigned before I can print them (only to be changed AGAIN, I'm sure) when the Updater comes out ... whenever that will be.

LaRetta

[Ted S]

Publishing an official comprehensive list of bugs would advantage nobody but your competition.

I also disagree. Filemaker's customers would benefit. As LaRetta stated, then Filemaker developers wouldn't spend hours poring over their own designs looking for the source of the trouble only to find out that it is a bug that the developer has no control over.

[xochi]

LaRetta

I'm with your first post (not your second) -- FM has a well-deserved reputation having really poor customer support with this kind of stuff (disclosing known bugs, acknowledging new bugs, and providing feedback on fixing bugs). They can and should do better. Personally, I've at times been so frustrated with FileMaker (the product and the company) that I've been very close to dumping them altogether and never looking back.

I've used some other software products where the engineers and project managers participated on mailing lists. My own software company has this policy. I've come to believe that this is how all software companies should behave.

There is a book about this called "the cluetrain manifesto" -- I've not read it, but I'm in agreement with the overall gist:

(from http://www.cluetrain.com/ )

These markets are conversations. Their members communicate in language that is natural, open, honest, direct, funny and often shocking. Whether explaining or complaining, joking or serious, the human voice is unmistakably genuine. It can't be faked.

Most corporations, on the other hand, only know how to talk in the soothing, humorless monotone of the mission statement, marketing brochure, and your-call-is-important-to-us busy signal. Same old tone, same old lies. No wonder networked markets have no respect for companies unable or unwilling to speak as they do.

But learning to speak in a human voice is not some trick, nor will corporations convince us they are human with lip service about "listening to customers." They will only sound human when they empower real human beings to speak on their behalf.

While many such people already work for companies today, most companies ignore their ability to deliver genuine knowledge, opting instead to crank out sterile happytalk that insults the intelligence of markets literally too smart to buy it.

However, employees are getting hyperlinked even as markets are. Companies need to listen carefully to both. Mostly, they need to get out of the way so intranetworked employees can converse directly with internetworked markets.

Corporate firewalls have kept smart employees in and smart markets out. It's going to cause real pain to tear those walls down. But the result will be a new kind of conversation. And it will be the most exciting conversation business has ever engaged in.

I'm encouraged that FM has taken the unusual (for them) step of acknowledging bugs in 8v2 and pre-announcing 8v3. Let's hope they see the value of riding further on the clue train :D

[Vaughan]

Ted: you can disagree if you want, but that's what the General Manager of FMI Australia said when asked at an FSA Developer meeting last year.

Imagine you market a FMP solution and there is a bug in it. As a competitor, I'm going to demonstrate that bug to customers (like a boxer going for a cut I'm gonna make you bleed) then show them that MY solution doesn't have that bug. I'll show them that you acknowledge your system has X bugs, whereas my system has none. Whose system will they buy?

There aren't that many real bugs in FMP 8 that cannot be worked around. The printing bug is one; the unstored field find bug is another; both of these have been acknowledged by FMI and they have announced the bugs will be addressed in the next patch update.

If you *really* want to get an inside edge over technical stuff like this then join the FSA. Serious issues like this often come up; sometimes they are restricted by NDAs, so FSA members cannot discuss them, not here or even between ourselves or on FSA member forums.

[Wim Decorte]

Imagine you market a FMP solution and there is a bug in it. As a competitor, I'm going to demonstrate that bug to customers (like a boxer going for a cut I'm gonna make you bleed) then show them that MY solution doesn't have that bug. I'll show them that you acknowledge your system has X bugs, whereas my system has none. Whose system will they buy?

That's a circular argument because if there was a list of known bugs then developer 1 could (and should) have tested his solution against it and worked around it. If he didn't then it would be solely his responsibility and his sales should suffer.

As it is now, I'm sure you know of some bugs that I don't know and vice versa and we could hurt each other's solutions.

[LaRetta]

I'm FSA and so are many on these Forums. And I've read every FSA email since mid-October. There has been no *inside* information passed about known bugs; in fact, only about three have even been discussed (and those are the published ones). Most FSA members are just as surprised as each bug is documented. And not everyone can afford FSA (nor should they be expected to in all cases). The information should be a public service announcement and 'national recall,' admitting their mistake and making it right. And they are making it right ... just at snail's pace ... while we search all night (half-blind tired) for information about why our systems are wonking. It simply isn't right.

Very few bugs in 8? True. 99.9% dynamite program. And, unless you're some of the unlucky, then I suppose those are good percentages. But only one in 50 Pinto's gas tanks would explode when hit also. Each of the bugs in vs. 8 has cost me (minimum) 30-40 hours each and counting. 99.9% of the program is phenomenal and I'm very pleased with FileMaker in the design-department. But the support department is blowing it. I would bet at least SOME of the bugs have been fixed and are sitting in that Updater ready to come out. Why is FileMaker NOT releasing it? I'll tell you why they don't release an Updater as each bug is fixed - it's because they don't want to have 8.0v19. So we wait ... and scramble. It would be a simple thing to post an Updater on their website for dowload or, at minimum, a detailed list which is the whole point of this conversation ...

L

[xochi]

Very few bugs in 8? True. 99.9% dynamite program. And, unless you're some of the unlucky, then I suppose those are good percentages. But only one in 50 Pinto's gas tanks would explode when hit also. Each of the bugs in vs. 8 has cost me (minimum) 30-40 hours each and counting.

I've found that some of this frustration can be ameliorated when one has an hourly (rather than fixed bid) contract.

But it's still annoying, I think most of us don't like wasted time, even if we are being paid well.

That's interesting about FSA: I'm not an FSA member and assumed that FSA members were given the super secrete decoder ring, access to beta tests, etc. Is that not so? Are there perhaps levels of FSA, some sort of elite FSA where you get the propellor beanie and more bug notices?

[Fenton]

It looks like Ilyse Kazar has created an independent forum list for "unexpected behaviors." It is at the Datatude web site forums:

http://network.datatude.net/

specifically

http://network.datatude.net/viewforum.php?f=37&sid=b12899b4d1b5cfb42a6bbf7a54a6b075

[LaRetta]

"I've found that some of this frustration can be ameliorated when one has an hourly (rather than fixed bid) contract"

You mean I'm supposed to get paid for designing?

Seriously though ... you mean then that the BUSINESS should pay the price because the help is not provided - the business should pay for the Developer having to scramble for answers and help. I respectfully disagree.

As for FSA, I'm only a subscriber - maybe the other levels get more direct bug information. But that wouldn't be right either. Are we supposed to buy our way to information that should be provided free? To keep it silent and make it difficult to find answers - that is what will cause FM to lose business (we, out of frustration, will go elsewhere). Suggesting that, if FM acknowledges bugs, our competition would benefit is ... well, backwards. It would be like someone not wanting to admit a mistake when, in truth, admitting the mistake and making it right is truly the RIGHT thing to do ... and I, for one, admire that behavior whether in an individual or a business.

As to the rest of it and whether one gets a decoder ring ... well, if I told you, I'd have to kill ya. :girlgiggle:

LaRetta

[LaRetta]

Thank you Fenton! I was considering starting a website for testing, evaluating and publishing 'unexpected behaviors' as well. I truly don't just complain - I believe in DOING SOMETHING. But I also realized it would take quite a bit of resources and time to make that happen (neither of which I have at the moment).

THANK YOU, IIYSE! :smile2:

[xochi]

Seriously though ... you mean then that the BUSINESS should pay the price because the help is not provided - the business should pay for the Developer having to scramble for answers and help. I respectfully disagree.

Whatever your agreement with the client is, is what they should pay for. I tend to prefer hourly contracts with no specific guarantees, so that when sh*t happens and i have to fix it, I get paid for my time.

Now that being said, if I make a stupid mistake, I usually don't bill the client for it.

But if some external factor causes me to spend time, I bill for it. That's the understanding I have with the client. I think that's a pretty standard arrangement in contracting -- A roofer agrees to replace your roof for a certain estimate, but if they discover you have massive termite damage to the wood frame, the roofer doesn't have to eat that cost. I suppose if the wood frame were under warranty by a third party, then perhaps the homeowner would try to get them to pay for repairs, but in no way is the contractor gonna do it for free...

[LaRetta]

But if, as a roofer, we put a roof on and the materials leak like a sieve, then neither the homeowner NOR the roofer should pay - the manufacturer should. And if the manufacturer refuses to provide support for the product they make, they won't be in business very long - and that's the way it should be.

[VFXdbGuy]

Version 8.0v3 has been released:

http://filemaker.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/filemaker.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=5907&p_created=1142290556