Color combos for filemaker layout.

[edudna]

I do not know if this is the right option of the forum but I have to put questions about the color combination of the filemaker database layout and the design as well. Can I use the same colors as the web? What colors are the most appropriate for the layout of the database. As I know progs use different colors and design from the web.

Any sourses will be gratefully acceptable.

Pascal

[Inky Phil]

Gosh Pascal

That has to be the most broadly based question I have seen here in the forum.

One could write a SERIES of books about designing the user interface and so to come up with a simple answer here is quite difficult.

I come from a graphic design background and many a time I have had to deal with clients who didn't know what they wanted - they only knew what they DIDN'T want and that was extremely frustrating as they could not give me any starting point from which I might arrive at a design that suited them.

My best advice to those people (once I realised the problem - grrr!) was to ask them to find a piece or pieces of work that they liked and to show it/them to me. I would then take the elements from that work and redesign it to become the clients own.

I suppose I am suggesting the same to you. Have a look around at some designs both web based and others. Once you find one that appeals to you analyse what it is that makes that layout appeal to you and then incorporate those ideas and colours into your own work.

You will not be on your own in adopting this method. You know what they say - there is no such thing as an original idea

Sorry I could not be more specific

Good Luck

Phil

[ThatOneGuy]

... I would then take the elements from that work and redesign it to become the clients own ... there is no such thing as an original idea ...

Perhaps, but some do enjoy the protection of copyright. Rights accrue to the original holder for derivative works ... at least in America and through a similar framework in many countries.

[comment]

http://www.quotedb.com/quotes/3500

[ThatOneGuy]

Hi Comment:

You're referring to the quotation of "Bad artists copy. Great artists steal." attributed to Pablo Picasso?

Catchy turn of a phrase, but I'm not sure you'll want to lead with that in the opening statement portion of your defense.

[comment]

I think you may have missed Phil's point. There is a difference between copying and being inspired. A rock-and-roll song is not necessarily a derivative of the Rolling Stones. You can copyright a work, but in general you can't copyright a style.

[ThatOneGuy]

I believe I followed the intent of Phil's statements, and that they were not of a nefarious character, although I can't speak to whether Phil is a character. For me, the thread took a direction that triggered my post. Should I have not submitted a post?

I can't disagree with you that "[T]here is a difference between between copying and being inspired." but the selection of Picasso's quote differs peculiarly from this latest position. And while "[A] rock-and-roll song is not necessarily a derivative of the Rolling Stones," it doesn't take much. George Harrison paid handsomely when the court ruled a relatively small portion of My Sweet Lord merely sounded reminiscent of a similarly-sized snippet of He's So Fine (can't remember the MoTown girls group, anybody know?) in violation of the holder's copyright.

Can you agree with me that there's a difference between being inspired and copying?

You can copyright a work, but in general you can't copyright a style.

If you're relying on the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals for authority, may I suggest you direct your research toward the reporter series for the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals.

[comment]

Can you agree with me that there's a difference between being inspired and copying?

I think I already did. And I believe that's what Picasso meant, too. As for the rest... let me put it this way: I wouldn't debate Filemaker in a legal forum.

[ThatOneGuy]

I think I already did.

It worked! I've finally gotten you to agree with me on something.

As for the rest... let me put it this way: I wouldn't debate Filemaker in a legal forum.

Yet you were debating legal principles in a FileMaker forum ... that's all right, I'll let you out of this one. I'm not dinged up; you okay?

[LaRetta]

Interesting thread! Actually, there is a third realm:

Bad designers copy. Good designers steal. And GREAT designers create. I DO study (steal) other's principles and the logic behind it (WHY they approached a problem as they did) but the creation always comes from my own mind.

Edited November 9, 2006 by Guest

[Stuart Taylor]

Ok im gonna go on a bit but stick with me...

I am an Artist and a FileMaker developer and im sure im not alone.

I have a 1st class honors degree in Fine Art but not design. (i know thats not a masters or doctorate but thats where i stopped)

Everything i do is for the art world and they are a pretty fickle bunch when it comes to easthetics but thats ok because so am i.

My position is simple.

First off i hate the term inspiration, don't know why but i do.

In the art world it is well discussed that there is no such thing as originality. Thats how postmodernity came about. Now i know you will all shoot me down for that but i mean it in a good way.

I prefer the term influence to inspiration. Its like FM Forums and why it is so great. Often a break through like the About or Data URL for the webviewer comes from research on things that have already been takled by others and every little discovery or a combination of many peoples efforts combined together allow us all to move forward and after a while those small steps look like a massive leap.

When i started developing i was concerned with the function of the calcs/scripts and schema of my systems. I stole concepts from existing solutions and operating systems and my users felt comfortable with that which is a great way of approaching design.

Some solutions ended up being so jam packed full of stuff that they look as ugly as hell and i must say i am embaressed to see them.

Now i tend to put the whole backend in first and then and only then can i begin the design process.

To be quite honest it kind of does itself all i try and do is put in as little as possible and as it gets simpler and simpler it becomes more elegent.

Colour is more conceptual than design based red is a warning or a sale... green is ok or good or available.

Fields need simply to tell you what they are and be as unsurprising as possible.

Grey text for a calc ... black can be edited ... italic is from another table...

I do like to simulate certain things cause i hate the non system elements of fm like checkboxes ... i want to tick not cross out my selection and these refinements although probably having a slight impact on performance make for a happier user.

I think elegence, simplicity and usability or functionality are the most important elements in the design process...

Colour is overated and the colour combinations in my early databases simply look dated now and i do not want to do that to my solutions.

White wins in my opinion ... but then my users are used to white walls so that it does not detract from the content of the object they are viewing ... and why would i want to do that to there data or images.

just a few thoughts

best

Stuart

PS i am no design expert and do not mean you to think i think i am.

Edited November 9, 2006 by Guest

[Inky Phil]

Golly Gosh!

I ain't never had me my own can of worms before.

Phil

[comment]

I agree with most everything you said (except the spelling, of course). I don't particularly like the term 'inspiration' either, but I couldn't find a better one for what I had in mind, e.g. those folks that heard the Beatles in the '60s and said "Hey, that's cool, I wanna make music like that". 'Influence' seems too weak for that. Anyway, if you studied art you should know I mean - there's a reason why they make you copy the masters first.

Grey text for a calc ... black can be edited ... italic is from another table...

Well, we know who you stole THAT from... but I only use italics in demos. In real life, users don't care which table it's coming from.

[comment]

Yes, I am perfectly OK, thank you. But I should tell you that I have little patience for verbal fencing. There are no points to be won here, and I am sure you don't really want to sound like some cheap lawyer. Much better to concentrate on the issues.

[LaRetta]

Now you SEE what you've started, Phil? Reminds me of a time on Cafe' when you said the same thing to me. You are too cute! :laugh2:

[Inky Phil]

:waytogo:

[ThatOneGuy]

Hi Pascal:

Using web-safe colors is not a bad idea at all.

Thank you, Stuart, for sharing your thoughts. They've given us something concrete to discuss.

Some solutions ended up being so jam packed full of stuff that they look as ugly as hell.... Colour is overated and the colour combinations in my early databases simply look dated now.

Word! I never committed the crime of "fruit salad," but I got near the line ... maybe a Class A misdemeanor, but not the Felony variety.

... simplicity ...

Perhaps the most important characteristic of all, I echo Stuart's remarks in not wanting the design to "drown out" the data. Here's a quote from C.A.R. Hoare (wiki for info) that has influenced me:

"There are two ways of constructing a software design ... one way is to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies, and the other is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies. The first method is far more difficult."

When I'm creating layout schemes, I try to come up with several iterations and let them sit for a few months (I'm not kidding) to see if they "gel." If any of them still have appeal, I start using them in my construction process. Over the weeks of development, I'm watching to see whether they "fade" to the background of conciousness and allow the data to come forward to prominence.

The "winners" often have some key things in common:

• Subdued colors

• Lots of white space, or more precisely, vacant space among the fields (If it looks like Manhattan, it's likely just as noisy.)

• Consistent fonts (Personally, I use only Verdana)

Now i tend to put the whole backend in first and then and only then can i begin the design process.

I guess we all work differently, but this approach has not worked for me. Software design is seldom a rational process. As comfortable as a linear method feels, additional needs will reveal themselves once we get into layout and interface.

In fact, I tend to sketch out the placement of fields and objects first. There is an argument to be made that the data users need to see on the screen will influence a table's fields and its relationships. I then have a bettter idea of what code will be required. I write code for a good bit, then bring the interface along. It's a fair amount of bounciing back and forth, but it helps me focus on the interplay of data and interface.

There's a reading you might enjoy, Pascal. Despite its title, it is not a technical writing. David Kachel's White Paper for FMP Novices is a wonderful collection of thoughts. It is there that I was introduced to the "fruit salad" concept. It's both informative and entertaining.

[ThatOneGuy]

I ain't never had me my own can of worms before.

And if you don't eat yer meat, you can't have any pudding ... how can you have any pudding if you don't eat yer meat?

Okay, we have prima facie evidence that Phil is indeed a character. Should have figured as much in light of that "Inky" thing. (Which, BTW Phil, is a great display name for a fellow in your line of work.)

[ThatOneGuy]

Much better to concentrate on the issues.

But epithets or name-calling is okay? This is unbecoming to the wealth of knowledge you contribute to these forums, and your well-earned reputation is much more valuable. Your code is crisp and concise. You have few peers but many admirers, among which I count myself. We have all benefitted from your insight, Comment. Please permit those of us with different insights to join in and share.

I offered a handshake earlier, not an overtly warm one, but a handshake. I will offer again, and it is my hope you'll accept it with the cordial sincerity intended.

P.S.

I don't know what it is about me that's ticked you off ... man, I just hope it's not my seemingly infinite use of ellipses ... I don't know if I could go on without them ... they're so useful ... well, I guess they are kind of addictive ... maybe I should try to cut back ... yep, that's what I should do ... I'll quit tomorrow ... but why wait, I'll stop now ... okay, now ... this time I really mean it ... THERE!! ------- and I'm truly just joshin' with you in this postscript, Mike. (For interesting results, play John Lennon's Cold Turkey while reading along ... gawd, they're back ... get 'em off me!...)

[Søren Dyhr]

Comment is trying to distinguise "pure" intertainment from the combination of:

1) Acquisition of qualities or knowledge

2) Developement of already existing qualities

3) Creative broadning of accuired skills or qualities without external restriction.

As expressed by:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_von_Humboldt

--sd

[comment]

I am sorry if you took offense - that was not my intention at all. On the contrary, I know from reading your other posts that you can do much better than that (and no, I don't mean your ellipses). I just decided to put an early stop to the type of discussion that goes "Yes, you did" and "No, you didn't". As I said, I have no patience for it - even if I have no idea who von Humboldt is. Okay?

[LaRetta]

Hi ThatOneGuy,

I re-read this thread over and over and can't find one example of name-calling!!? Nor did I feel any negative energy from Michael in any of his responses!!? I DID however, feel you rise to a defensive posture right off the bat with:

For me, the thread took a direction that triggered my post. Should I have not submitted a post?

This is very uncharacteristic of you - you have always been very very nice! Michael didn't contradict you in any way - he proposed another view on the issue (presented a link); nothing more and we all are free to contribute on ANY thread. Your response perplexed me (but then again, you know wemmin, we can be an odd bunch). You brought up copyright first as well; Michael simply responded with his opinion. Neither did I see your 'offer of handshake earlier'!!? Neither of you became angry or even CLOSE to stepping over a line of mutual respect so I don't understand the problem here at all. You both are wonderful contributors to this forum.

I use too many ellipses as well ...

LaRetta

[Stuart Taylor]

Well, we know who you stole THAT from... but I only use italics in demos. In real life, users don't care which table it's coming from.

hehe ITS TRUE : :

I tend to do this when im developing stuff - if im truthful i tend to use a slightly smaller font for related data (unless i dont wand my user to know its related)

But italics in relation to related tables is just a good way of demonstrating structured thought and applying a set of rules ... which then becomes an integral part of the design process.

If you have as far as possible a rule for the appearance of different objects based on there usage - that the user can identify with when hitting a layout they have never seen before your winning...

It becomes intuitive ... and after a while so does the design process.

Everybody wins :

PS: It was a bit of a ramble ... I agree with you that you cannot put the whole backend in before sticking and testing things on layouts so maybe the statement was a bit rash ... but as for the final overall design i could not really begin that untill i know whats gonna be on the layout ... thats kind of what i was getting at.

---- Re-reading the original post ... I was always under the impression (i think it was in the fm 6 developers standards) that the web palette found under colors in the application preferences is the best palette to use as it is most likely to render the same on a mac and pc. Sure this is probably still true. (and think this was pointed out in an earlier post)

I find the greys in the web palette a bit limiting and use some custom ones and browns can look really strange when looked at on another platform although most people do not use browns anyway... hope this helps

best

Stuart

Edited November 10, 2006 by Guest

[Genx]

Okay, straying slightly away from philosophy (in my short 17 years, i have to say i don't have a great repository of quotes)...

First things first... the only thing that can be copyrighted in software ... is the source code. Unless the software happens to be some revolutionary breakthrough in computing and deserves a patent... this doesn't apply to color schemes, or nagivation styles... as far as i know?

Let's say that your idea was right, let's say you could be sued for copying a general idea, or a color scheme, or a layout of data. Right now, firefox would be deep in a law suite with microsoft for billions of dollars for "stealing" their tab idea, for "stealing" the simplicity of their layouts. Likewise, Microsoft would be making a similar claim against Mozilla thunderbird, for purporting to "steal" the tree structure of the navigation system, aswell as many of the functions that MS outlook offers. Microsoft would be suing mac for using "folders" to store "files".

The truth is, if the world were to function as you describe it -- it wouldn't really be functioning at all -- everyone would be to busy suing each other and "learning from their own mistakes" when they could just as easily learn from the mistakes of multi-million dollar mult-national corpoations that have spent millions of dollars and man hours on designing their software to be user friendly.

In the end, i'm talking out my... And the only point im trying to make here is that we should stop wasting our time and get back to what we're doing.

In the mean time if anyone wants to look at good color schemes, layouts, and "steal" plenty of ideas on layouts goto www.templatemonster.com . While most of the templates are specifically for websites, the color schemes, navigation etc. can be very applicable to user friendly database design.

Anywho, i told you my opinion wouldn't be good but oh-well.

[Inky Phil]

Hey Genx

Good call with the template monster thing. Oodles of inspiration and influence to be had there

Phil

[Stuart Taylor]

Hi Genx,

Good stuff,

Your message was a response to mine i think as nothing else seems to discuss theft...

You may have misunderstood my post...

In an earlier post i gave the example of using italics in fields that where infact from related tables (it was just an example).

Comment then said jokingly... we all know who you stole that from ... as he uses this method in his example files.

I was simply acknoledging the fact that i had infact "stolen that" or been "influenced" by/from him ... and that is funny.

It was not intended as a copyright issue.

As a side note: I did read on Wikipedia think it was on the history of browser wars that AOL had infact licenced the use of the GUI of explorer form Microsoft... thought this maybe interesting

... but i really did not want to send this tread on a copyright diversion ... it was simply meant as a giggle with Comment.

best

Stuart

Edited November 10, 2006 by Guest

[Genx]

Yeh, it wasn't really a response to you stuart lol, more to ThatOneGuy's very first response, but i just never really hit that reply button, derivative works / theft / stealing -- relating to copyright they all mean practically the same thing so, same difference (i realize that term makes no logical sense). ... sorry

But yes, regarding your AOL suggestion -- the first web browser would likely have been patented - patenting of an idea - the first peice of software designed to "browse" the internet, just like the first search engine. But that's not copyrighting, it's patenting, there's a difference -- nowadays, none of the browsers pay AOL anything :

[Stuart Taylor]

Here is the piece i mentioned ... think i remembered it out of context ... an interesting piece of history though:

Quote: Microsoft created a licensing agreement with AOL to base AOL's primary interface on IE rather than Netscape.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browser_wars

best,

Stuart

[FileMaker Magazine]

In the mean time if anyone wants to look at good color schemes, layouts, and "steal" plenty of ideas on layouts goto www.templatemonster.com . While most of the templates are specifically for websites, the color schemes, navigation etc. can be very applicable to user friendly database design.

Anyone can feel free to be "inspired" by any of my layouts at Scriptology Theme Library as well. I also personally use TemplateMonster and these other places for inspiration.

CSS Remix

CSS Import

There are are only so many ways you can design a layout and have it make sense. Try searching for these keywords on Google to learn more about good design "design balance", "negative space design", "color theory user interaction". You'll quickly find other topics upon which you can search.

Sincerely,

Matt Petrowsky

[Genx]

Speaking of which Matt -- love that thing, looks great in the video's and some of the techniques you use in your layout design especially with tab panels etc. are awesome - i may even buy it... i've spent more money on less. Seriously, if anyone's not subscribed to FM mag.. do it, do it now! Some of the techniques on there are really great...

I really don't know why i started using the word stealing, but i thought'd be fun. In the mean time, RE: the AOL article... good read, but one thing to note is that AOL actually based their browser on the source code of IE...