Recursion and FMkr

[z178]

Have been trying to learn FMP since it is the only "Userfriendly" db on the Mac. I want to develop a solution for my office integrating my word processor, spreadsheet and database. (I did make a prototype db to work in my office though it looks it might be better if I switch to Word, Excel, Acess VB.NET). All it matters to me is to get my work done in the most efficient way and still be able to easily customise the solution. Every time we noobies ask a question like "How do we get this functionality in FMP?.. General Patton said from FMP5.5 to FMP9: "Nothing is Impossible in FMP" with [color:gray]"that can be easily done in Access". Should I wait for Apple Numbers 2.0 (or its equivalent that outperforms excel) , then wait for FMP X to support Numbers, Applescriptability and Recordability, Learn Objective C/JAVA to create my custom data entry screen, learn APXL, PHP, Javascript or Should I use Access, Excel, Word, Powerpoint and VB.NET?

What can filemaker do that MS Access cannot do other than run on OS X and Windows?

Its surprising to find that under the hood FMP a "limited database" for people looking for user friendly functionality.

FMP now has Limited SQL capability, Limited ODBC connectivity, Little better than Limited Applescriptability (compare that with VB.NET and Access). Better support for Excel than the previous version? Was really excited to learn that I can hide an interface element if I add it in a portal with a background set to none and somehow set the related table add or remove a record to show or hide the element. Then I learnt that in Access, I can use Object.visible="False" to hide an object.

May be its more like an "Appletrick" way of showing people that though they are number "X" in the computer industry, they are growing daily and still there is room to grow.. Last year's sales tripled this year (10 to 30 = rate of 3X !! ) and its still growing??

FMPs cross platform advantage is eclipsed by its inability to add full support for all the latest apple technologies out there.

If I need a good user friendly interface, I am limited to what the FMP built in tools offer.

In Access for example, I can use all the power of VisualBasic to control the user interface. Control visibilty of objects via scripts, Events, a good timer that does not lockup the screen, change field properties like border color to give instant feedback to the user, a good scripting language, ODBC, integration with other office tools like spreadsheets, word processors... When will we see these features in FMP? Hopefully not when the Mac platform finally overtakes windows that >90% of the world is using a Mac!

I pray to thee that then there will still be more room left to grow!

Amen.

Edited October 11, 2007 by Guest
Don change the subject of Thread.

[Ocean West]

One thing to also keep in mind is you have the power of 3rd party plugins that allow access to PHP and or Shell Script with these two plugins you can pretty much harness the power automate and touch many aspects of the os.

[Søren Dyhr]

Well knowing that this to you might be similar to Buddhist instructions in one-hand clapping do I however think you have to see the product in this light instead:

illustrates the importance of designing new products around the needs of the user, not the demands of the technology. Too many technology firms think that clever innards are enough to sell their products, resulting in gizmos designed by engineers for engineers

Deliberately biased off from this:

http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9302662

Further down the same text come this bite:

is that smart companies should sometimes ignore what the market says it wants today

It's cracking a joke but it actually good put this way:

When all of a sudden she drew back and said “I’m aware of the esoteric aspects of sexual behavior and consequently must preclude you from such activities”! I said “I don’t get it” and she said, “Ya that’s what I said”!

...snipped from: http://fmforums.com/forum/showpost.php?post/265244/

--sd

[Genx]

LOL, if you think the FileMaker database which can store up to 8TB of data is a joke, go look at the access db size - 2GB. The only reason it has such "good" sql support is because its own proprietry format is a joke.

You also have to remember that FileMaker has a completely different business model to Microsoft.

You can get pretty decent event support from freely available plug-ins for fm... and of course you can purchase plugins to take care of your OS integration... or after you finish your database with FM in 1/4 the time it would take you with access, you could always go along and learn C and write your own plugins and get the same level of integration as you do with Access - it all depends on how much your time is worth to you.

[z178]

TeraBytes's of Data!

Thats awesome.

But how does a user get that much data into a database with a limited interface to enter data with minimum clicking and typing.

If Terabytes and Terabytes of data are the strong points of a mac friendly database, wouldn't I be better off using InnoDB tables in MySQL, PHP and Javascript than FMP, PHP and Javascript? Besides MySQL is free and hosting is cheaper than FMP?

+ I think a VB or C# programmer is much easier to find than an FMP or Obj-C programmer anywhere in the world.

Adopting a new technology for the benefit of its user base is a matter of a "wise" choice that a company has to make. Just because a company does not adopt a technology in its products does not mean that it will prevent a rival product catching up in the market or does it mean that the same technology will not appear in the market. Certainly Gizmo's wont help but keeping up the advertised quality wouldn't hurt.

"Economist" might not be the wisest advisor for a company just like the President of a Country might not be the best representative/advisor for its people. Their intention is just to sell their magazines and articles and somehow convince some readers keep coming back. They wouldnt care if a great mac friendly db like FMP survives the market.

Reminds of the "The turn around Policy maker - Gil Amelio" who helped Apple survive its financial Crisis in the last century. Amelio Made, Apple Paid..

Nuf said.. I will continue to play around with FMP on my Mac.

Who knows... may be FMP will evolve to something some day just like Power Animator evolved into Maya not too long ago...

[Genx]

But how does a user get that much data into a database with a limited interface to enter data with minimum clicking and typing - Scripts, imports, an interface that's had more effort put into it than just clicking and dragging fields on to the layout?

+ I think a VB or C# programmer is much easier to find than an FMP or Obj-C programmer anywhere in the world.

Yes, that is absolutely true, FM aims for a niche market, heck you could probably find more dos programmers than FMP developers.

The moral of the story is, FMP is powerful in its own right, IF you know how to make it do what you want. If you want to spend 2 hours with it, construct a primitive database and dump some fields on a layout and start complaining it doesn't do anything, well then that's your prerogative.

[Søren Dyhr]

Or isn't instead that being around a tool long enough makes you mirror it's discourse in your thinking and forget the initial urge to tear it out of it's realm.

Your take on databases is at present, why can't it handle images the way you wish it to, while you can take the corner where Daniele Raybaudi roams ...he can hear gnats farting in repeating fields. It's filemaker for him ... while Alex and I similar chases gremlins elsewhere in the tool.

It's like the gist of the poptune "...be my Yoko Ono" by Barenaked Ladies!

Then are we back in my initiation:

Two hands clap and there is a sound. What is the sound of one hand?

— Hakuin Ekaku

"...in the beginning a monk first thinks a kōan is an inert object upon which to focus attention; after a long period of consecutive repetition, one realizes that the kōan is also a dynamic activity, the very activity of seeking an answer to the kōan. The kōan is both the object being sought and the relentless seeking itself. In a kōan, the self sees the self not directly but under the guise of the kōan...When one realizes ("makes real") this identity, then two hands have become one. The practitioner becomes the kōan that he or she is trying to understand. That is the sound of one hand."

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_of_one_hand_clapping#The_sound_of_one_hand

So there is no honest advice to give here, Matt Navarre and Dan Weiss once talked about what they would do if Filemaker went bankrupt ... there is no easy answers!!!

--sd

[z178]

@ GenX

If what you are saying is right, then am not sure why filemaker calls itself an easy database to use. It takes more than 2 hours to create even a primitive database in Filemaker? We can do scripts and imports on MySQL using CLI but that still wouldnt make it an easy and user friendly database. The whole concept of user friendliness on any OS starts with what they call "drag and drop simplicity". May be you should give Access a try before you even start bragging about your "Developer Skills".

Niche Market ??

Sounds more like techno jargon from an "Average Developer". Filemaker does not seem to support any of your rants. I can't find any reference to keywords like "dumping fields easily" (more likely a slang in some parts of the world for drag and drop.. LOL) or "Niche market" anywhere on the FMP website.

The moral of the story is, When you dont clearly read and understand the question posted, please dont try beat around the [color:blue]BUSH like bushmen and Bash ! & please dont act like a developer when you are/have not developed at all.

Such kind of people who call themselves "developers" are probably more easier to find than DOS developers !

[comment]

I'd suggest you edit your last post to tone it down and keep to the subject. Your personal attack is in poor taste and totally uncalled for.

[xochi]

If you like Access + Visual Basic (because it's a real programming language) then I recommend you seriously consider REALbasic + MySQL + PHP -- not only are these real programming languages, but REALbasic supports Windows, Mac and Linux, and of course PHP + Web server supports every platform out there.

However, for most folks this combo has a much harder learning curve than FileMaker. What you find good in the long run may not be what's good in the short run ;)

[z178]

Will do.

Thanks

[Genx]

I don't know what your problem is, but I'll bet it's hard to pronounce.

To be honest though, for your insults to mean anything i'd probably have to actually have some sort of respect for you as a person first...

And just FYI seeing as apparently you never took Marketing 101, "niche" in the sense that I used it is a marketing term and has absolutely nothing to do with technical jargon...

Anyway, given that you put no value to my opinions (which i'm perfectly fine with) I obviously have no reason to waste my "Average Developer" time on you.

[Søren Dyhr]

or "Niche market" anywhere on the FMP website

But what they actually say is this:

When business professionals outgrow spreadsheets, they depend on FileMaker. With ready-to-use applications and solutions, anyone can be more productive. Customizing, creating, and sharing solutions is quick and easy. And FileMaker is powerful enough to integrate with corporate data environments, share on the web, and grow as your needs grow.

I do not know if you envision a shotgun or a rifle here, I see a lot of faddish talk, with false promises to piggyback on templates, which even Albert Harum Alvarez have been involved in ...they look nice and could perhaps pass as database for some. This means that development time is lower than the two hours you talk about.

But Albert makes it clear in the podcast interview that they have no idea as to whom it might be that actually will find them usefull. I've been around the tool since 1995 and can only think in filemaker solutions other tools have never caught my genuine attention allthough I actually started out with 4D, which by and large have been a more agile tool closer to real programing.

But the Byzantine crincles of the tool appeals more to me ... musicians and musicbusiness people seems to gather round this tool for exact the same reasons as the bassplayer who put a '57-neck on '56 body of a Fender Precision bass ...to move the dead spots elsewhere.

We are used to less than ideal tools and take a pride in throwing in ingenuity as long as the tool have a "personality" ...while you with genuine programming tools perhaps can get away with a less flamboyant personal attitude. I do not know what your parallel to this expression is, but "...as the master, so is his dog." I mean a certain kind of people raise dogs for dogfights.

But Albert Harum Alvarez might have a point here. No other tool eases the:

http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/Amywohl?entry=lobbying_for_the_users

http://books.google.com/books?id=FkpqAnHUNLYC&pg=PA150&ots=_NlUBuDBJ1&dq=the+interface+dilemma&sig=zKwmzjUwYE6QtRiz6LypWV7w50U#PPA150,M1

...it seems you need to go to page 150 manually although it's mentioned in the url!!!

--sd

[z178]

Great analogy S*en dyhr. "Rasing dogs for dog fights.."

Sorry to say this but your circumlocutious posts are useless as usual. It seems you can never give a direct answer to a simple question.

Take a look at this..

Your take on databases is at present, why can't it handle images the way you wish it to, while you can take the corner where Daniele Raybaudi roams ...he can hear gnats farting in repeating fields. It's filemaker for him ... while Alex and I similar chases gremlins elsewhere in the tool...

But the Byzantine crincles of the tool appeals more to me ... musicians and musicbusiness people seems to gather round this tool for exact the same reasons as the bassplayer who put a '57-neck on '56 body of a Fender Precision bass ...to move the dead spots elsewhere.

Your posts looked like they were tranlated from some foriegn language to English and something was lost in the translation. Either that or you are way too brilliant than Stephen Hawkings in your level of thinking trying to explain FMP using Quantum Physics. Like you said, I wasn't expecting a shotgun answer for a simple question like what's the advantage of FMP over Access for newbies.

Thats why I never bothered to reply to any of that verbal dyhr-ea.

AND

I do not know what your parallel to this expression is, but "...as

:

Thanks for your words of wisdom ;)

[Søren Dyhr]

It seems you can never give a direct answer to a simple question

The ones who think they can, are fooling themselves! Does simple questions really exist?

--sd

[Lee Smith]

No more personal insults, or I will take action.

[z178]

I have applied for citizenship just recently only. Please do not report me to the INS or deport me or banish me from your world. I am no terrorist or illegal immigrant. Just kidding..

But X-tremely grateful for all the great advice.

My membership at fmforums was well worth the ride.

I think I will get better help from the much more "common VB programmers" and Access programmers with lot more forums to choose from.

Happy filemaking Yo'll !

[Tori Mitchell]

*sigh*

Troll (Mod -5: Troll)

If you want to bash a tool, at least learn enough about it to try to trash it. If you think that Access/VB script is better, (and for some things, it probably is... but not nearly as many as you'd think). By all means, please go there and stop insulting helpful people for trying to respond to your obvious flame-bait first posting.

You seem to have come to this thread with a bias and you didn't really ask questions so much as rant to us about some fairly enigmatic gripes about things that you can do with VBS/Access... many of which were simply wrong and the rest of them were just silly.

To address your points individually:

FMP now has Limited SQL capability, Limited ODBC connectivity, Little better than Limited Applescriptability (compare that with VB.NET and Access). Better support for Excel than the previous version? Was really excited to learn that I can hide an interface element if I add it in a portal with a background set to none and somehow set the related table add or remove a record to show or hide the element. Then I learnt that in Access, I can use Object.visible="False" to hide an object.

- Not true. ODBC has been in FM for a while now (Server Version 5?) Applescript is fairly well supported and, if you really feel like it, you can use ScriptMaster to leverage the entirety of Java with FM (VBS ain't s*** compared to J2EE). As far as interface issues go, we now have Conditional Formatting... and a lot of other things that Access dosen't really do all that well UI wise so it's a trade off.

More useless whining and pontification on nothing.

*yawn*

In Access for example, I can use all the power of VisualBasic to control the user interface. Control visibilty of objects via scripts.

- Yeah, so that's really more or less bunk if you know what you're talking about. The tabbed interface gives you a good way to do a bunch of the stuff that you're talking about and CF does the rest.

Events, a good timer that does not lockup the screen

Okay, that's finally a point... wow nice load of drivel to get to an actual valid complaint. Events are iffy in Access and have a nasty habit of being a problem in transaction. I talked to one of the lead devs at FMI and they're trying to do this without that problem. To the timer, ScriptMaster gives you (for free) the J2SE nanosecond timer with a .04ms callback to stop/start so that's a point... with a really good workaround. The screen lock thing... well, that's because FM is a 'DataBase' instead of a programming environment so you really don't get things like a timer in the core unless you reach outside... just like you have to do with VBA.

change field properties like border color to give instant feedback to the user, a good scripting language, ODBC, integration with other office tools like spreadsheets, word processors... When will we see these features in FMP?

Been over CF two times. You're still wrong. Scripting language? Please explain what you're trying to do. ODBC? Been there. Shush. Integration?

Integration?

Hmm... well, there we get into a place where you're actually right. Access is much tighter integrated into Office Apps... because it's part of office. We finally have native export to Excel but there are no pivot tables and no really great way to look at the data live in a spreadsheet. There is no way to merge everything into a word document or integrate things like that into the workflow.

But then again, FM is a database where Access isn't really even a competitor in the same market.

Access is a small workgroup solution with tight integration with MS functionality due to it being a hashed up version of the FoxPro engine on the back-end (now the Jet engine) with VBA stacked on top of it. FM is used in small to large workgroups with a cross platform design kit that is really quite robust in it's abilities on both platforms.

If you want to talk about Access as a front-end for anything other than an Access DB, then you're not comparing apples to apples anymore as that quickly gets to be over $10K for a small installation (the joys of Oracle/MS SQL), or a stability nightmare (ODBC to MySQL is... interesting through Access).

So, in short. Please don't try to start a flame war with experienced, pleasant, lovely people from Denmark who we like very much because you're too ignorant to realize that user-friendly and powerful are generally competitive terms. FM is deep and wide. If you take the time, it's really a great tool. If you're too lazy to learn the tool. Thanks for your time.

[FestiveEmbalmer]

hear hear!

Even though trolls can be nuisances, not answering their vitriol with well reasoned arguments can lead to a vacuum that discourages new filemaker users like myself who might begin to wonder if all of this reading, lurking and tinkering is going to pay off in the long run.

Especially since "experienced, pleasant, lovely people from Denmark who we like very much " are very much in short supply here in the USofA.

I should like to add that a dev community that is "user-friendly and powerful" in and of itself adds a vital level of competitiveness to an already feature rich platform.

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"The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - GK Chesterton, 1911