Relinquish a Password?

[osiris612mb]

I created two databases, and modified a third database at my previous employer, I was the only person who knew the ADMIN username and password, and was asked to leave the company. I left on bad terms and am now being asked for the username and password so they can modify the database.

My dilemma stems from the fact that it was the management and I who parted on bad terms, but I am still in good terms with some ex co-workers. One of them being the person asking for the info.

So my question is, do I have to relinquish the info?

If Yes, by what means?

If no, can I charge them in anyway for consulting work, for whenever they need modifications? Or even a one time fee?

Mods, If this should be in the Security Concepts forum, accept my apologies and please move, thanks!

[Fitch]

Suppose you took with you the only key to the server closet (or the water closet). Would you be obligated to return the key?

Suppose you took with you a physical book in which all the company's passwords were kept. Would you be obligated to return the book?

IMO, the key, the book of keys, and the key in your head are all company property.

It would be hard to make a case for billing them for your time to just tell them the password. Modifications are a different story, they can't expect you to work for free just because you used to work there!

[LaRetta]

I created two databases, and modified a third database at my previous employer...

Work completed as an employee belongs to the company including free access to it. Tom says it very well. It is similar to being asked to build a car and then locking the gas tank.

In my personal opinion, you should not charge for time involved to give them this information because it should have been freely given before you left even if they didn't realize they needed it ... you did. If they wish future modification it can be freely consulted out.

The terms by which you left has no bearing on what is the right thing.

[Lee Smith]

Do not hold the Admin information hostage. They belong to your former boss, unless you performed this work under some kind of contract where your ownership was spelled out.

Move on. Take you FileMaker abilities, and Resume to a new opportunity. Remember, when one door closes, another one opens.

my 2¢ worth. :

Lee

[xoomaster]

If you had made it clear to the company staff about the fact that the DBs are yours, then it is a different story. That said, you really don't have to be nice either. They want the password, let them work for it.

Also do you have "about" layout in those DBs ?

Edited May 20, 2008 by Guest

[xoomaster]

are guys here? hello, hellooooo

[osiris612mb]

Thanks everyone. You all make a very valid point, it isn't exactly "my" password. It just pissed me off since, I had tried quite a few times (20+) to not only train the other users on everything about the DB's but the server as well, and no one ever thought it was a big deal, and now they come begging.

I will offer up the info after some time though, just to make them suffer a bit, but will give it up and offer a consulting package to them. Those services will not be free.

I also never created an About table, nor did I have well versed documentation, I never thought they would stoop low enough and let me go....

[Lee Smith]

you can turn this into a contract opportunity.

Tell the staff that you no longer help for free. If management (staff) wants you to support it, then have them draw up a contract, where you can spell out the services to be provided, and fees.

Each person that contacts you in the interim, needs to be instructed to see management about a contract, and that you can not work with them without one.

HTH

Lee

Edited May 20, 2008 by Guest

[LaRetta]

If you had made it clear to the company staff about the fact that the DBs are yours, then it is a different story.

I could not disagree more. The data belongs to the company. The db belongs to the company. If you want to argue about the rights to resell the db to another company then that is another matter. But, even if you were a contractor and designed a db for someone, you have NO right to keep it locked if they have fulfilled their part of the contract (paid for it).

They want the password let them work for it

Wow. Remind me never to ask for your design help.

[Steven H. Blackwell]

Work completed as an employee belongs to the company including free access to it

Not necessarily in all instances, although generally this is the case. The work would needed to have been done under the scope of employment. And that can be, and usually is, a somewaht gray area.

In this isntance, however, the better course of action would be to send a certified letter to the company with the password information, along with a cautionary wording about allowing inexperienced people to access the system with full access rights.

Further, the company may attempt to break the password. They are likely to be successful in that endeavor, [color:red]and that will damage the database.

Steven

[comment]

I tend to agree with the majority here that a work made by an employee within the scope of their employment belongs to the employer - unless there's a contract that says otherwise.

However, I would suggest that regarding legal issues you consult with a lawyer, rather than with your friends and colleagues. That is if you intend to pursue this. You don't need a lawyer in order to give them the password - perhaps accompanied by a polite offer to maintain the solution on a per hour basis (revenge can be sweet). You might need a lawyer if you don't do this immediately, because they might claim damages caused by your delaying.

[xoomaster]

I work for a multi-million $$ company, and all I make and design is mine and only mine, even though it is related to my field of work, how ? Because I had the big shots sign a piece of paper, before I accepted the position. So it is all based on your arrangement and contract. There are labor laws that has to be satisfied at least in U.S. if there is any dispute.

It can get quiet ugly.

[LaRetta]

... and all I make and design is mine and only mine, even though it is related to my field of work, how ? Because I had the big shots sign a piece of paper.

Then the big shots have no idea what they signed. And it is still not proper nor legal. You had them sign a piece of paper saying that, you exclusively owned the program you wrote for them (and that they paid for) AND ... you own their data inside? I'm sure that the big wigs would flip if they thought that data was yours to do with whatever you wished. And I'm also sure that they would flip if they understood that they also didn't even own the program you wrote for them - unless it was clearly understood on a lease basis. You may own the rights to the design - but you do NOT own the program and the data inside!!

Regardless, the data is theirs. And if the data has value then their inability to retrieve it is a financial hit and they would rightfully fight you. It sounds to me like their legal should have been more involved in any such contract. I mean, good grief, you can take the files (program) containing their data and walk away and they can do nothing? I just don't buy it. Ugly is indeed the word for this situation.

Edited May 20, 2008 by Guest
Corrected typo

[mr_vodka]

Most likely some kind of Non-Disclosure / Property & Intellectual rights contract was signed as part of the employment contract. Most people do not even realize it when they sign the employment deal.

[Brian C]

I believe that if an agreement is signed between employer and employee as a condition of employment, then any software developed is owned by the employee so long as it is developed exclusively by the employee. This can get very sticky with resources used, people used to help develop, etc. In a court of law they could claim a percentage ownership depending on how much the line was crossed unless this was also outlined in the contract.

Lawrence livermore labs had problems with this in the past and actually decided do enter into agreements with their scientist/workers where the lab will share half of the patent money earned with the employee who developed the product/solution. This allows the lab to retain the rights, while allowing the employee to profit and stay motivated in creating new productions/solutions, etc.

It is not legal to claim rights to the data contained within that is specific to the company. At the very least you would be forced to export the data and hand it over to them and destroy the data in the solution that is specific to the employer following your departure.

[LaRetta]

Don't mix 'owning the software rights' with 'owning the program' now sitting on the Company's server. I do not dispute that a developer can negotiate and take the RIGHTS to the software. But no company in their right mind would put their entire business in a program, depend upon that program to run their business and then let ANY employee (or contractor for that matter) walk out the door with the files and the data. And refusing to give the password is the SAME THING.

Again, the files were LEFT; it is the password that is being discussed. It should be obvious to everyone involved that the files stay (or should stay) because they have been paid for by the company. We are not talking about even leasing the program here.

Argue as you will ... right is right. There may be extreme cases where the company knows the program is only temporary but that is also not what is being discussed. We are talking about 1) an employee who feels spiteful and doesn't want to give the password until the business hurts a bit or takes them seriously if he doesn't get pissed off too much and then refuse to give it at all and 2) someone who thinks they are safe by having the business sign some sort of paper saying ALL RIGHTS belong to employee when, in fact as Mr. Vodka pointed out, there are laws in place and, as an employee, those laws also protect the business. Refusing to give the password is simple meanness.

Some of you can deny, justify (well, I can hurt them because they pissed me off), twist reality (known as thinking errors) all you wish. Right is right. And blurring the line helps nobody. Now, as I'm sure a few of you are very glad, I'm off of this conversation because it angers me beyond belief at the lengths some whinnies will go through.

[xoomaster]

There is a difference between "Data" and the actual software.

Big difference. Contract or not, data belongs to the institutions, but that does not automatically give them the rights to the software. Also if the company is interested to what you develop, then you need to be advised on the labor law and specifics in advance of your development.

The other point is, if you are actually hired to do developing specifically.

For example a lawyer develops a fine DB to keep track of his hours and daily routines, is his and not the company, but the names and the clients and their info probably is not.

Now a lot of Universities and large institutions have specific, and clear notation in their contracts that states, any discoveries or developments of any products and "software" will be the property of the institutions.

But as an employee you have the right to reject that clause and if accepted, then everyone is happy and you are hired!

Lat point, no case is ever won by getting angry B)

Edited May 21, 2008 by Guest

[mr_vodka]

Well there is a big difference in creating a tool to assist daily functions while on the job (as your particular lawyer example states) verses being the developer of a system for a company, where obviously one were hired for the SPECIFIC function of creating software for them (as the OP was).

Anyway, back to the orig point, yes one could hold out for the password, but most likely you will just be asking for trouble. Why bother going through lawyers and all that just because one is holding onto some bad feelings and wants to be spiteful. Give them back their password and be done with it. By playing then who can be more of a donkey, you leave zero room for a possible consulting job.

[LaRetta]

Lat point, no case is ever won by getting angry

Somebody should get angry when they see garbage behavior from associates. If we don't speak up, who will? I would rather be known as someone who gets angry when they see idiocy and spiteful behavior being used in conjunction with the words 'FileMaker Developer' than be known as someone who sits back, sucks their thumb, whines, uses and manipulates.

I see it differently. And I have every right to do so. Not all FileMaker Developers are children and I am not afraid to speak up and say so. There is absolutely NOTHING NOTHING wrong with anger. Anger moves the world to action. It is why someone is angry that matters. I am angry because I see, not only childish behavior from would-be developers, but that they support each other in their behavior. Someone should speak up.

Keep going and I will also. I know I said I was done and you thought you'd get the last word in and look cutsey but I lied. I mean, I can do that ... there is no contract. :therethere:

Edited May 21, 2008 by Guest
Removed sentence which might be perceived incorrectly.

[osiris612mb]

We are talking about 1) an employee who feels spiteful and doesn't want to give the password until the business hurts a bit or takes them seriously if he doesn't get pissed off too much and then refuse to give it at all and

For the record, I gave the password and usernames up the moment I responded the second time. I was not aware of IP laws and what-have-you, so that is why I came here to post a question, and the first few responses were spot on, and gave me valued insight. I emailed the person back immediately (after I found the correct uid/pw) and offered my assistance on all other aspects of the db in the future under a contractual basis.

[Lee Smith]

Excellent!

Lee

[LaRetta]

Absolutely ROCKIN' ... way to go!! :waytogo:

[grumbachr]

not to beat a dead horse but doesn't the employer have the responsibility of getting all information they need from an employee before they fire that employee? I assume that once the employee has been fired they have no obligation to the employer any longer.

If my manger comes to me right now and ask for passwords to all databases i've developed I have to give them up. But if he fires me then calls me a few days later for those passwords why isn't he/the company at fault for not getting them before they let me go?

[LaRetta]

Well, it usually isn't until the company needs to modify a database, that they realize they even need a password! They don't know FileMaker and have no idea that we Developers usually have a special password for us. In truth, we should take that responsibility because we know it will be a worthless program without the master password.

There is a saying, something about ignorance being 9/10ths of the law. I doubt that. But whether it is true or not isn't the point either. If you build a new tool for someone which requires a special key to start the puppy then it is your responsibiltiy to tell the owner; not up to him to discover it at some late date.

[bcooney]

Just take the high road and it'll pay you back (maybe even in referrals). Burning bridges is never a good idea, even if "the law" didn't require disclosure of the development password.

[xoomaster]

Temper, Temper, Temper !

What is next, kicking the dog, because the TV is not working B)

[comment]

I think you have mixed up "Ignorance of the law excuses no man" with "Possession is nine-tenths of the law"?

In any case, I agree. If you took something that does not belong to you, it doesn't become yours just because the rightful owner didn't ask for it straight away. Tom's example with the key is spot on.

[comment]

Temper or not, I believe LaRetta kept her remarks to the issue at hand - unlike your last one.

[xoomaster]

Sorry you feel that way, but regartless, "Anger" is not the way to go !

[mr_vodka]

and neither is vindictive immoral behavior...

Hey everyone is entitled to the way they handle their own business. There are people that would sell out their own families for personal gain and others that would step on anyone or anything to obtain their personal gains.

Some people are cool with that and others feel that it is just wrong. But to each their own.

This overall discussion of this thread can continue but lets all refrain from posts that do not add to the discussion.

[qube99]

Withholding the password would undermine your case, if you actually had a case.

All of my contracts are very detailed about such things but in practice I never impair a website, not even for non-payment. I've found it far more profitable to pursue nonperformance cases through the legal system.

It looks to me like you were working without a written agreement. Chalk it up as a business lesson and move on. Also, the anger thing is quite amateurish, you'll be far better served by learning total control of your emotions.

Friends come and go, enemies last forever.