Graphical user interface

[George TOUBALIS]

Hello I think I m the only Greek in this forum .... hahaha

anyway sorry for my not so good English

My real job is graphic designer (I design cd covers, posters, catalogues for music company's)

Also I write articles in local graphic design magazines.

All these began the moment that I realise the majority of graphic user interface and the Graphic design limitations of file maker pro. In the begging I experiment with graphic user interface and now I write code... for scripts and calculations ha ha ha ha

I have read at least 15 books of database design theory ( General, SQL, PHP and FMpro ) and practice and I like it very much. It is a challenge.

I have develop fm pro databases to speed up and automate my work in huge catalogues with Quark xpress (prepress and page layout programme)

600 pages with 9.300 products (image and text ) with interactive page layout depend on categories, ready for prepress house (films) In 2 days. This is my best.

I work as graphic designer the last 12 years professionally I and I think that the communication between a user and every solution or programme is a major subject .

If we have a great solutions who works fine, why this solution have to be jazzy with 10 different fonts, 10 colors and ugly buttons. I have download the last 4 years about 1500 solutions and demo files of Filemaker pro. The 99% of them (even the expensive*) are pain in my eyes, no design, no even basic aesthetic.

I' seen thousands of buttons, bars, borders in fm pro (icons files) but no one give to the developers the rules ...

For example:

The distance between title and field

The distance between vertical alight fields

The distance between groups of vertical alight fields

How a group of fields looks like group (!)

Which is the correct letter size in a button

What is correct distance between the letters in the button and the edges of the button ?

Did you know that the distance between OK and Cancel Button matter to user behaviour ?

Did you know that good design except logical an physical analysis is put the to many many many fields in a way that the user understand and not the that ........ (I don't know the word maybe "take a place") in a layout?

Maybe to some of you, these things are details in front of the state of CODE your solution is sitting but believe me the good looking screen matters.

There are not only employee out there but there are also a managers (who write the pay check) who don't want to see 8 hours a day an ugly - jazzy image in their monitor.

Look a simple example

The "Bryce" was a 3D programme Very Very Slow with Basic 3d features for Entry level users and it sells many hundred of thousands...Why ...?

because brings a revolution in easy Graphical user interface, even my mother (born 1935 can use it after 10 min training).

Another example

By far the best programme in digital paint is the "studio artist pro" Very few artist use it because it has the most difficult and non understandable GUI in the world.

Its a shame because it has a deep philosophy and unlimited sophisticated techniques.

We have to understand that we can't do anything we like but we have to follow the rules ... and believe me there some Experts out there who work about these rules.

If you are mac user you can find many General Design of Graphical user interface rules in "X developer tools" in pdf format.

It seems to me that in Filemaker world no one cares about the psychological side of a user . The buttons, the labels, the text, the tabs, the move between layouts, the portals are objects for experiment and Serious decisions. It takes me 6 months experiment & customised design to make a final decision about the general logic GUI of my solution.

And it's very difficult because FileMaker pro has not a true Graphical user interface.

The filemaker pro team seriously has done a great job in database logic but in GUI are 15 years back. The member of FMpro community are almost all "code lovers" not designers. that's why we saw one layout with 65 buttons, 9 "OK" buttons and 5 "back" buttons they don 't know anything about kerning, elements eye security distance etc and its physical couse this isn' t there job. So the fmpro team has to help them not only to build a good database design but also and a good Graphical user interface.

I think The great solution is the one that works fine (by default) and has a happy user to work with it.

even the expensive* My advice for Fmpro developers even SQL or Oracle developers not as developer but as client.

1) When I by a Mercedes Bence S class (100.000 $)

I found not only the best mechanical parts (code) , I found also (around me in driver position) the best leather, the best wood, the best plastic, sophisticated elegant entrustments, even the click of the buttons on my finger is a different feeling experience.

2) When I make a product catalogue (in my Job) not only I have to put the text and images on pages... I have to design the correct way that the products appearance on pages to be elegant and ergonomic with respect for the readers and the money I was paid for.

sorry for my not so good English once again...

George Toubalis

Art Director

Sony Music (Greece)

[Ugo DI LUCA]

George TOUBALIS said:

Maybe to some of you, these things are details in front of the state of CODE your solution is sitting but believe me the good looking screen matters.

Plenty of good ideas you put here. But you should be aware that 99% of developers are spending as much time in designing a User Interface as the Codes, scripts, calcs and other means. Without them, a User Interface wouldn't be useful at all.

I don't know if these 1,500 solutions you downloaded were really solutions or tips/demo files, but I'm rather satisfied with the way FM allows customization of ones solution.

Programming is one thing, developing and designing another.

Now, I fully agree that there aren't enough rules and lecture about how to build an efficient UI, even if as you pointed it, it also depends on some Psychological aspects, therefore depends on the kind of users the solution is targetted for.

Nevertheless, while you obviously spent some time for this post, I just wanted to point to your knowledge that *WE* aren't programmers.

I'd be really pleased to hear/read/see any tutorial or article you'd have written or anything related to the several lines you've dropped here.

Ciao.

[Vaughan]

"The member of FMpro community are almost all "code lovers" not designers."

Sure there are a lot of really bad designers out there. Bad CD designers. Bad FMP designers. Bad industrial designers.

The person who designed the CD jewel case is an excellentexample. It is an appaling piece of interface design exceeded only by the compact casette case. There is no clue given on how to open it. If it is forced even slightly the weak hinges break off, and then the case is useless. And the little fingers that hold the disk break off too easily so the disk rattles around inside and gets scratched.

Remember that FMP is a primarily a development environment, not an end user tool in itself. Can a manufacturer of hammers be responsible for badly designed furniture? Should hammer manufacturers teach their customers the finer points of joinery? Interface design is probably more difficult than graphic design, because interfaces have to succeed in function as well as form.

"And it's very difficult because FileMaker pro has not a true Graphical user interface..."

So, you've not tried database design with SQL yet?

[Jim McKee]

George ...

Thanks a lot for your post.

After reading what you had to say, I'm sitting here in amustment realizing that I've never seen a single post on any of the FileMaker forums about the interface. Questions like, "What colors do you use for buttons?", and "What is the best line spacing for multi-lined text blocks?", simply never appear. I've seen attempts to imitate Apple's Aqua interface applied to FileMaker layouts, and I have to confess that to my eyes they look busier and more confusing that a 3-ring circus. I know "great" when I see it, but I can't create it myself.

Writing the code that makes a solution hum is fun. Creating the user interface is sheer torture and brings great fear and trembling to my soul. I have never had a course in graphic design, although I confess, I do know what kerning is. But I am so style-challenged that I have to bring a friend along with me when I go to buy clothes and furniture because I have absolutely no idea what colors go with other colors. I've met very few code geeks who even know how to dress themselves and look coordinated at something as casual as a Saturday afternoon softball game. I dunno -- maybe it's a left brain versus right brain kind of challenge.

Ideally we would all have assistants who specialize in graphic design to create the GUI's for our solutions. Realistically, this will never happen because of the budgets of most of our clients. So, except for the very few of us who work with large corporations, we settle for what is workable and logical, rather than what is aesthetically appealing. Not that the two are incompatible -- it's just that most of us don't know how to do both. Now, if a client said to me, "I'm willing to spend $5,000 extra on the system to make it visually appealing", I'd contract that out in a heartbeat to someone who knew the difference between purple and plum. But working primarily with the kinds of small businesses that I develop for, that's never going to happen. NEVER.

I wouldn't be opposed to taking a course in GUI design and how to make the functional more beautiful. Maybe it's up to you to start the ball rolling and develop some courses or write a book on the aesthetics of the GUI in FileMaker solutions. I'd buy it. Or, at least point us to some articles you think might nudge us in the right direction. That would be a start

Thanks again for your post!

[LaRetta]

that the communication between a user and every solution or programme is a major subject .

Hi George,

You

[kenneth2k1]

Remember from biology the idea that structure dictates function. There is an entire phase of the SDLC that deals with user research. What the users' skills and knowledge are; what their habbits are; what are the requirements of the system and so on. This is very important. I agree with some that have posted here that design can get too much attention.

I also think that FMI can do a better job of supporting animated objects and such. But remember that good UI design is more than just colors and aesthetics. It is also keystroke count and operator efficiency. How long does it take to complete a task? Can that task be completed faster? All that stuff.

My opinion

Ken

[Paolo]

Hello George,

as many other guys (and ladies) here I would be happy to share ideas and samples about inteface design.

Personally, I spend more time in interface design than in structure design. I also find structure design much more simple than interface.

>>

>>If you are mac user you can find many General Design of Graphical user interface rules in "X developer tools" in pdf format.

>>

My "interface principles" come from a book from the 90's: Inside Macintosh - GUI design guidelines.

Among the other issues:

graphics should help communication not dazzle.

bright colors for small detalis, soft colors for large areas.

correctly choose, group and displace elements

keep interface consistent trought dialogs - windows - applications

>>

>>FileMaker pro has not a true Graphical user interface.

>>

I think I understand what you mean.

I would like to see real OS-X (aqua) interface natively implemeted in filemaker.

But this would lead to serious cross-platform limitations.

The good point is that FM gives you great freedom on how to design your solution interface. The bad one is that you have to write yourself the rules to follow to make it functional and consistent.

Paolo

[Ugo DI LUCA]

Hi again,

George brought such an intriguous and passionate analysis that I couldn

[George TOUBALIS]

"Can a manufacturer of hammers be responsible for badly designed furniture?"

No of course not. But manufacturer of hammers give a good tool for a specific job. What tools Fm pro give to developers.? 70's tools

The generic graphics on fm pro is vector based. Not by acsident but for the reason of speed. How difficult is it a feature like import a vector based draw in a layout... and stay vector?

How difficult is to give the control of the radious value on radious buttons

[Fenton]

I agree that all developers who use quantities of big bright colored buttons scattered all over should probably be sent to some kind of layout training camp :-/

But there is not at the current time a solid cross-platform standard of what a user interface should look like. Soft gray? yes, some 3D? yes. But both Apple's Aqua and Windows XP are moving targets; which is a good thing probably. XP looks like a well-designed pre-school interface. Aqua is also kind of extreme, with some areas a bit washed out. Even Apple thinks so, and has changed it in 10.3, adding more metal, etc.. They've also changed many of the Tabs to a kind of "tab bar," which are not really tabs, more like a row of gradient buttons.

So, what's an interface really supposed to look like? It's partly up to you to decide for yourself. In my opinion that's good. I don't want to be a machine, cranking out "the authorized interface" over and over.

Another sore point, with me anyway, is the lack of a common open-source screen font. Arial is OK, though thin, for PC, but is too narrow for Macs. Verdana is OK for both, especially at small sizes, but is a bit wide, is clunky at large sizes, and has too low a baseline (if that's the right term) at all sizes; it sits too low on a button, unless you cut and paste it separately.

Also, though Verdana is widely distributed now, it belongs to MS. They have recently removed it from their free fonts download page. This means that if and when Internet Explorer and other MS software are no longer bundled with Macs, we will no longer be able to either rely on its presence, or even be able to point to a site to download it separately. Yes, it's the way the world works, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

FileMaker is primarily a database, not a graphics application. Which is good. We should not sacrifice speed for looks, or we're going to be out of business. Still, there have been many times when the "Replicate" command, present in most vector drawing programs would save time, for that row of tabs, buttons, fields, whatever. Kerning would be nice, but not if it slows down the text, not to mention what happens when text runs through the calculation engine, which at present strips out all styles.

[George TOUBALIS]

"Finally, why not add to this Forum a " Interface Design " part, where we could upload for tests some layouts, and have a feedback on it."

I agree and I will support it...!!

Question:

Here in Greece I can't find any more 15" monitors in market. The minimum size is 17" Is that mean 1024X768 is a default for now on?

Or big company's In USA or in Europe continue give to there stuff 15" monitors to minimize the cost??

George.

[kenneth2k1]

This IS one thing I hate about FM. Most templates and other solutions out there have the layouts so that they would fit on 800x600 resolutions.

I've noticed that almost all PCs I have worked on will be 1024x768 and the small layouts look lame. Many LCD monitors today are like 15" viewable and still have 1024x768. It looks ok. But those old stupid iMacs have like a 13" viewable and 1024x768 looks too small. So you (or I) have to design layouts that accomodate this. Personally, I have lobbied my company to get rid of all those dumb iMacs or any other pee-sized monitors.

Ken

[George TOUBALIS]

before we pass to graphic User interface lets see

"ConceptDraw Pro 1.8.5" www.conceptdraw.com/en/

an exelent programme for drawing, making structure analysis,

logical and phisical analisys, relationships, etc...

*see the file of my last database 180CM X 120

I printed this and I put it behind my monitor when I work in fmpro in case I lose my way....

[Fitch]

Believe me, George, you're not the only geek in this forum... oh, you said Greek, sorry, my mistake.

A couple of comments:

1. We already have a UI forum, The Right Brain: "Graphical user interface, design & layout, eye candy, and a little human touch... "

2. Vaughan's comment "... that FMP is a primarily a development environment, not an end user tool in itself."

We developers would like to think so, but I don't think that's the way FileMaker is marketed at all. Look at their ongoing "business card" ad campaign. FileMaker is supposed to make anyone a database designer, the same way PageMaker makes anyone a graphic designer. Don't get me started.

I'm one of those who thinks UI gets way too little attention in the development process.

Now I'd like to recommend a UI site I came across recently: OK/Cancel.

And also this essential UI site: UI design for Programmers.

And here's a more FileMaker-oriented piece:

Good Waiters & Bad Waiters.

I have more, if anyone's interested.

[kenneth2k1]

I'd be willing to bet that many of you Apple users are not happy with FM's graphic design limitations.

Nothin' but the Mac in you.

[Vaughan]

"'I'd be willing to bet that many of you Apple users are not happy with FM's graphic design limitations."

What limitations?

No kerning? No animated graphics? No built-in Aqua interface support? No built-in Windows XP interface support? Neither Aqua nor WinXP are the ultimate in interface design. I like Fenton's comment that WinXP is "a well-designed pre-school interface." And IMHO MacOS X is still really only in beta.

Users can only be grateful that FMP does not support animated graphics. Imagine users having to click the "skip intro" button every time they tried to make a new record.

I find my personal interface design skills far exceed any limitations that FMP may present. And I put a lot of effort into interface design. Users keep wanting stuff to be neat and simple. And fast.

Every so often I get out my old Macintosh SE with its tiny b+w screen and see all the elegant interfaces the designers were forced to create to overcome its limitations.

[Lee Smith]

What limitations?

No kerning? No animated graphics? No built-in Aqua interface support? No built-in Windows XP interface support? Neither Aqua nor WinXP are the ultimate in interface design. I like Fenton's comment that WinXP is "a well-designed pre-school interface." And IMHO MacOS X is still really only in beta.

--snip--

ROTFLMAO

Thank you Vaughan for making my day.

[-Queue-]

Great links, Fitch! I thoroughly enjoyed my reading during the last couple of hours.

[Charles Delfs]

Ah yes 'User' interface design, the problem here stems from the name. You got to love it;

Drug dealers and software companies are the only ones who call thier clients users.

Charles

[Fitch]

So Charles, you're saying if we came up with a better name, the interface design would take care of itself?

[Fitch]

This discussion would certainly be incomplete without a link to the interface design motherlode.

[kenneth2k1]

Ugo DI LUCA said:

Minimize any risk !

You know what, in a few years, you could come back drunk from some bars and enter your opened neighboor

[Ugo DI LUCA]

Good week-end, wasn't it

I won't ask if it was the husband or his wife...

[Charles Delfs]

So Charles, you're saying if we came up with a better name, the interface design would take care of itself?

No of course not, but techies think like techies, and the rest are still looking for the 'ANY' key. How often does a developer use his solution on a daily basis with thier "users" We must remember that when someone does not understand the interface it is never thier fault it is the designers.

On another note, we also call software issues "Seats" an improvement

Chgarles